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what would be fair salaries?
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what would be fair salaries? - July 19, 2004 3:23:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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What would be good competitive salaries for outpatient ortho. PT. Not for new grads, but with some good experience. Nevermind the geographic location. How much is enough, how much would make you not look for another job and feel that you are being paid what you are worth?
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 19, 2004 3:49:00 PM
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sinistre
Posts: 22
Joined: May 23, 2002
From: Norway
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About $60000 USD would do it for me I guess. I do outpatient ortho in Norway - my own clinic (renting a room at a gym). I grossed about $20000 last year. My problem however is that the Norwegian PT ass. has done some deals with the government and a lucky few PTs are getting subsidies - Which amounts to a little more than $30000 US - before they lift a finger and then a little more per patient they actually treat. This is in order to keep the prices low for the general pop. Which makes it really tough for me.
So anybody over there in the US that are willing to sponsor me for a working visa and pay me $60000 US you'll be welcome to send me an email.
_____________________________
Ole Johansen, PT, OMT, ART
http://www.muskuloskeletal.no/
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 19, 2004 6:28:00 PM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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My opinion is that all PT's should make a base salary of around 20K. Everything else is based on productivity, while being closely monitored for overuse/overutilization. Too many PT's make an easy 55K because someone was desperate for a PT, and they sit back and really don't work that hard for what they get
Duffy
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 19, 2004 6:38:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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I have worked in 3 clinics, one i was seeing about 15-16 a day of primarilly non-operative physiatry referred patients. One I was seeing 12-14 a day of mainly post op knees and shoulders, and now self employed I see one patient per hour almost all hands on manual. Would you say then those should all be 20K a year?!?!?And how can you say that when the average MSPT costs almost 80K to achieve never mind undergrads debt? Or a LMT can make 45-80 per hour, or a personal trainer 45-80 per hour...don't you think we are a bit more skilled and a bit more qualified and should be paid for our knowledge? You think triaging a patient at an ER door is worth 100-180 an hour? Or is it the knowledge of one of those docs to pick up some rare lifethreatening situation that gets them that moeny? I personally feel a PT should make no less than 60 and maybe upwards to 85-90 if they are generating about 1300 net a day, then why only get 20K a year? And why would you bonus someone for productivity? Health south does that, and look where it gets them, lots of unsatisfied patients and terrible services. I am surprised to hear you say that...just like a pilot has a rather easy job but they make 200K a year easy. Well, they are not paid for the routine here to chicago on autopilot on a sunny day, that money is for them to know what to do in an emergency. We should be paid for our knowledge of what to do with the "tougher" cases. Maybe even if it is one out of 20 cases that come through the door that require some true brain power above and beyond a new grad level, that is why we should be paid. No other profession has the ability to Dx biomechanical dysfunction and treat the body with a combined manual and prescriptive exercise and behavioral change like we do, so why wouldn't we get paid accordingly?
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 21, 2004 3:59:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Having managed at least 50 PT's in my career,I am very comfortable saying that. PT's can be the most difficult employes to manage, and really tend to coast when on their own. I found managing people in retail to be far more satisfying than in PT!
If you properly manage a PT, monitor him/her, and put on a productivity scale, you will see success. I recently spent time talking with a family physician about the same thing. I feel this gentleman is one of the most caring and compassionate, and educated MD's I know. He is trying to get his organization switche the same way, as the "coasters" are being taken care of those who hustle.
A good PT should and WILL make 60k and up. A lazy and poorly motivated PT should not even be practicing.
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTUpdate.com]www.PTUpdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 21, 2004 4:07:00 AM
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FlashPT
Posts: 6
Joined: July 19, 2004
From: France
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What is money if you lose the quality of life?
Working less, gaining less but more holidays and the same annual profits but less professional taxes.
I'm French.
Money is not a good value in life!
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henry
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 21, 2004 5:47:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
Posts: 1057
Joined: February 29, 2004
From: Kentucky
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ahhh. The french.
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 21, 2004 5:58:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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I agree to a small extent. I was miserable with one job and no matter how much they paid me Iknew I had to leave...I was also offered 85K this year to work 3 days a week for a chiro owned clinic that was not very ethical in practice nor billing and refused that too. So yes, money is not everything...however, if you can earn more of it and still be ahppy a happy wealthy person can sometimes be happier than a poor happy person..and student loans still suck the big one. I am still laughing though while I write this thanks to army...
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 21, 2004 10:22:00 AM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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Army, I second that.
Ahhh. The french. Let's leave it at that.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 3:07:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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ArmyPT and Greg, please: NOT here!
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 4:33:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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FlashPT,
Off the topic,
How about that Thomas Voeckler and Richard Virenque? Good job to them!
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 5:18:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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"Once in the Pyrenees for two hard climbing stages, Armstrong punched the accelerator with his trademark high-cadence rhythm, and the favorites fell away like the French defending paris"
Andrew Wood
ESPN
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 6:50:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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I like PT update's idea, but alot of room for abuse. Hourly wages may be the way to go, guarantee a certain amount of hours a week and match with productivity. 50-60k average with educational expenses of 500-1000/yr. Weekend hours would not be extra, but would be expected as needed.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 7:01:00 AM
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TLB
Posts: 353
Joined: September 13, 2002
From: Arizona
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Whoa! Where do I sign up? Doc, I would love to be your tech and I even get to work the weekends to boot-- sounds great to me. Keep dangling that carrot and I'll come running.
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Todd
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 7:42:00 AM
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hmgross
Posts: 292
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From: Minnesota
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How about simply telling a PT that performance is sub-par, write it up, if low performance continues say "sorry but you are not working out here" and put the responsibility on to the PT? I know that hard work can be rewarded (performance based raises and bonuses) but I don't know how you could avoid abuse with a system that pays according to productivity.
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Holly Gross PT
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 22, 2004 11:10:00 PM
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Yen
Posts: 25
Joined: May 13, 2004
From: Australia
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Being a professional group and all, we need to set a standard rate for consultation/treatments/employment.
If some PTs work for CHEAPER rates/fees, that immediately generates competition and clients/employers will always look for the cheaper therapist (even risking quality of care)
Thereby down-plummeting our professional worth and it is not taken for what it should be taken for. Are we truly only worth $20K after graduating? And only 60K with experience?? Are our clinical assessment, treatment skills, diagnostic skills in M/sk movement disorders , role in the the allied health team, health promotion, continual professional development etc etc , only worth this amount?
I share many frustrations with you all about our pay levels and am appalled when I sit and compare a PT's wages with that of a (in australian base wages) LMO ($17 /hour) , RMO ($18),intern ($16/hour), RN ( up to $50k pa), CNC(up to $80K pa), experienced PT assistants (up to $25 /hr), DC, even plumbers and electricians (um...$70 call out fee, plus $60 /hour, plus costs) teachers, accountants etc. Basic arithmetics says it all...PT's wages are low.
So, when charging our clients, or accepting anew contract of work, i suggest we keep in mind that we seek a decent wage which suits the worth of our work and profession.
I agree with John Duffy, unmotivated PT's should not be practising. Poor quality of care and lowly paid PT's should re-think their employment paths. they surely would be paid better doing something different and they ccertainly would do better there than PT.
however, Sinistre from Norway stated that she/he would work cheaply for 60K pa if someone sponsored her over. *chuckles* i am in the same boat...and after having heatedly typed the above about the worth of PT care, I mimick sinistres words. If u are willing to sponsorme, let me know! :D
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 23, 2004 2:45:00 PM
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PTPLUS
Posts: 50
Joined: February 12, 2004
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I've stated this here before and I'll say it again>>If Physical Therapist ever want to raise salaries and position in the health care world the profession must start focusing on raising the evaluation skills of all PT's, making the evaluation and management of patients the focus of practice, and then delegating (while protecting the right to observe and manage) the non-skilled treatments to lesser trained personnel. The privilege of delegating to other professionals for evaluation and testing beyond our scope would also, IMO, be of benefit in relation to others perception of our chosen profession.
I could care less about direct access if other health care professionals would send all appropriate non-surgical musculosketal cases to Physical Therapist. I would like it even more if we could spend most of the day on evaluation and management of patients, and less on the SLR's, teaching basic HEP, basic massage type activates. There would be less OP PT jobs! Maybe, but on whole I think most here would enjoy said job, and earn more to boot.
How much income could you generate if you performed 8-16 PT evals a day? How much income could you demand?
These ideas could also apply to acute, rehab, peds, etc. focused PT's but the more I think on this the more I believe that the only way that outpatient, ortho focused PT can ever reach it's full potential is to separate itself from the rest of the PT world on some level. This could be accomplished on a variety of different levels, and example would be: legislatively mandated board certification for independent OP PT's after one-two years residency in approved facility. Separation, not "universal direct access" is the only way we can ever be fully be paid for our skills and not bases solely on the market demand/productivity (see unneeded procedures) for filling of PT positions across what in all reality are totally different professions.
I apologize for the long post.
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 23, 2004 10:48:00 PM
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OUPT
Posts: 32
Joined: March 23, 2004
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Duffy probably has more management experience than anyone else on this site, especially considering who he works for. 20k sounds awful low, and I doubt many experienced PTs would be on board with that. What happens when the census is down in the typical 2-3 down months each year and there is a family of 5 to support along with a mortgage, car payments, and those wonderful student loans? A base 40-50k with productivity incentives seems more plausible in today's climate.
I am definitely on board with productivity incentives, as our clinic uses experience as the primary factor for salaries. We have a cranio-sacral therapist seeing 4-5 patients per day (mainly work comp.... which limits billing to a max of 1 hour treatments) while a few of us see upwards of 15 patients per day. Nowhere near the same reimbursement comes from the cranio-sacral therapist, but our salaries are the same.
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 24, 2004 8:44:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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But one thing you guys HAVE to admit...you have fantastically low stress and cush jobs! Myself (when I practiced) made good money, never was on call, never worked weekends, almost always left work by 530, never there prior to 7a...didn't need a pager!
THis still holds true for my friends who practice PT (some work every 4th weekend).
Compare that (with a 50k salary) to RN's, RT's, paramedics etc who work on call hours and some terrible shift hours. Most of you can make your own schedules! Please.
It is a beautiful life you guys live!
I just can't seem to feel too bad for you guys.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: what would be fair salaries? - July 29, 2004 10:18:00 PM
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Yen
Posts: 25
Joined: May 13, 2004
From: Australia
Status: offline
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Quote Dr Wagner:
" I just can't seem to feel too bad for you guys"
Man! I think you might be the only one Doc.
PT's need a salary to match our level of skill and knowledge base needed to be licensed to practised. Not to mention the responsibilies entailing our work.
*sighs* we all need a pay rise
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