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RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques

 
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RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 19, 2010 11:57:19 AM   
chiroortho

 

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quote:

Perhaps not with every manipulation method.... but Cox F/D comes to mind as rendering not only unisegmental mobility assesment, but also unisegmental specificity as to level isolation of treatment.  Do you agree?

Nene,
I am still working to process that concept, and I am not 100% there yet.  I am being intellectually honest with you about this.  I will be taking Cox Part II and completing certification in Cox Technique in November in Chicago, Dr. Cox himself will be providing the training.  This will be followed by a cert exam. 

I was initially trained in Cox Technique back in the early 80's but his approach and research have changed, and he is a wonderful researcher, clinician and human being.  He has been in practice for about 50 years and when you hear him speak he is as enthusiastic as a 9 year old in an ice cream shop.  It's truly infectious.

You may be interested to know that I have two of Dr. Cox's top of the line Cox 7 tables manufactured by Track Corporation, and they are the best tables that I have ever owned.  I have also been treated by Dr. Cox a year or two ago.  After being treated personally by Dr. Cox on a Cox 7 table, I essentially got up from the table and said 'build me two of them, I don't care what they cost'.  They are that good. 

Hope that helps.

~ Greg

< Message edited by chiroortho -- July 19, 2010 12:03:37 PM >


_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 61
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 19, 2010 5:52:13 PM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
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Oh I know the difference, that's what is funny.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 62
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 20, 2010 7:36:19 AM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

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Isn't there more evidence for DRX9000 to treat disk prolapses than using a basic lumbar flexion distraction table? That is so 1970s.

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 63
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 20, 2010 8:12:57 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Check this thread:
http://physicaltherapy.rehabedge.com/tm.aspx?m=66616

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 64
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 20, 2010 3:15:11 PM   
chiroortho

 

Posts: 691
Joined: February 19, 2004
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chirotalkfriend,
If you're sincere about this, spend some time here and make sure you review the research information.

One thing that I particularly dislike about the traction machines is that they are 'set it and forget it' machines. The same is not true with Cox technique. There is no doubt that the machines can be very lucrative for a practice, especially compared with Cox treatments. I charge only for a manipulation, and even with a series of treatments I come nowhere remotely close to the $5,000 that the machines generate, and I am required to be in attendance with my hands on the patient, rather than letting a tech set up the patient while I do something else.

If I wanted to get rich treating disc herniations, I would definitely consider adding a traction machine. But I had a Triton computerized traction unit many years ago but I donated it to a local PT center. I did not come to the conclusion that it was useless, I simply was not personally satisfied with its efficacy and thought that perhaps others could put it to some use...but it was not for me.

Unlike many, I do not involve myself in these territorial battles any more. I leave that to the state associations and politicians. I treat, and have treated, numerous PTs. The valedictorian of my class was a PT. I just admit to tiring of the constant battling, and that's why I don't participate here often any more. It just gets old, it's generally uninteresting, and nothing ever seems to get resolved.

~ Greg

(Edited to get the URL right. Looks like it's working now)

< Message edited by chiroortho -- July 20, 2010 3:23:18 PM >


_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 65
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 20, 2010 10:23:25 PM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
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I was able to find some peer reviewed studies on the DRX9000. That thread you pointed me too was too outdated Sebastian. Is this the pattern-cherry pick outdated work to justfy one's preconcieved opinion? The queen is not amused.

Regarding DRX9000, it is noteable how many patients who were unresponsive responded to the treatment. Terry Yochum is a noteable chiropractic radiologist.

A recent review of non-surgical spinal decompression efficacy trials established
that available data in the peer-reviewed literature are inconclusive in
determining whether spinal decompression is superior to other non-surgical
treatments in treating LBP.8 Since that review, two new studies have
demonstrated the safety and efficacy of the DRX9000, along with two case
reports suggesting the positive physical effects of treatment on the
intervertebral disc.4–7

A retrospective study evaluated 94 patients treated with the DRX9000
between September 2005 and March 2006.4 Diagnoses consisted of disc
herniations (73% of patients), degenerative disc disease (68%), and a
combination of both (27%). Median duration of LBP was 260 weeks. The
patients presented with an average pain score (NRS) of 6.05, which
decreased to 0.89 at the end of treatment. Oswestry Disability Index
score decreased from 21.9 at presentation to 6.5 at completion. The
patients also reported decreased analgesic use and rated the DRX9000
8.55/10 on a satisfaction survey. This chart audit suggests that chronic LBP
and functionality improve with treatment on the DRX9000.
A prospective, multicenter, non-randomized phase II pilot study followed
18 patients treated between January 2007 and April 2007.5 The study
participants underwent a course of 20 DRX9000 treatments over a six-week
period. Mean duration of LBP was 526 weeks, with numerous failed therapies
prior to the DRX9000. The average pain score at presentation was 6.4, and
reduced to 3.1 after only two weeks of treatment. This continued to decrease
to 0.8 at the end of treatment.
Oswestry scores decreased from 23.7 to 5.5.
The vast majority of patients (88.9%) stated that they would recommend the
treatment to others. No serious adverse events were reported.

http://westportspine.com/COPY/images/research/PDFs/mccain.pdf

More research:

http://www.westportspine.com/research.asp

Greg,

It's hard to take Cox seriously when he states BS.

"EVERY CHIROPRACTIC ADJUSTMENT SEEKS TO DECOMPRESS NERVE ROOT AND DORSAL
ROOT GANGLION. IT IS A BASIS OF THE CHIROPRACTIC ADJUSTMENT. DECOMPRESSION IS CHIROPRACTIC."

As Penn and Teller would say, B*llshit! Less than 5% of chiropractic patients present with nerve root compression and this is often a contraindication to manual adjusting.

My next concern is that you can't accurately guage what is going on in a spine when you are using the F-D table because of the same problems as Motion Palpation, one contact etc. Even worse, you are limited by your hand strength as to how much force you can exert and for how long. In a contest between a machine and a hand the machine always wins, remember John Henry and the railroad tie driving machine?

That Cox page is from 2006, DRX has studies from 2007 and later.

I honestly don't have a problem with people making money for helping patiesnts. I never thought it was a charity.

< Message edited by Chirotalk_Friend -- July 20, 2010 10:34:46 PM >

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 66
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 1:25:42 AM   
bonez

 

Posts: 701
Joined: August 29, 2007
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You just dig your self deeper and deeper. This form of treatment has gained increasing public beware warnings. First rule of thumb always be wary of groups that do their own research to validate their equipment.

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 67
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 6:06:40 AM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
Status: offline
If that rule were applied to the pharmaceutical industry most of the drugs would never be tested. Instead only 20% are shown harmful in later long term research. Sorry but I don't buy it. You shouldn't be so closed minded, dismissive and biased. Especially considering the fact that you're not correcting biomechanical problems and will be needing a lot a pharmaceutical analgesics in the future.

< Message edited by Chirotalk_Friend -- July 21, 2010 6:14:00 AM >

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 68
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 7:53:30 AM   
chiroortho

 

Posts: 691
Joined: February 19, 2004
Status: offline
quote:

Less than 5% of chiropractic patients present with nerve root compression and this is often a contraindication to manual adjusting.

(A) And you know this...how???
(B) Nerve root compression is 'often a contraindication to manual adjusting'? And you know this...how???

quote:

My next concern is that you can't accurately guage what is going on in a spine when you are using the F-D table because of the same problems as Motion Palpation, one contact etc. Even worse, you are limited by your hand strength as to how much force you can exert and for how long. In a contest between a machine and a hand the machine always wins, remember John Henry and the railroad tie driving machine?

You clearly either did not read the page and the attached research, or you read it with suboptimal comprehension. That is the only way I can politely put it. That aside, your analogy of John Henry proving that the machine always wins is amusing but utterly irrelevant and uninformed.

quote:

That Cox page is from 2006, DRX has studies from 2007 and later.

Getting a little impatient with you here, I'll just go ahead and spoon feed you by quoting from the page itself:
quote:

Additionally, as of July 2007,
he has also compiled a point-by-point list of comparison. That is on pages 2 to 3 of this document.

July 2007 wouldn't be 2006, right?

quote:

You shouldn't be so closed minded, dismissive and biased.

And you say this to bonez?

Back to the point, and directly from Cox's site, we see that he doesn't make ridiculous claims of cures and in fact the following is a tenet of his that he and I have discussed via email:
quote:

With back pain, CONTROL, NOT CURE is the motto.

Dr. Cox makes no claims of NASA supporting his products, nor does he claim to cure everything under the sun.

Lastly, since you seem genuinely interested in research, you can go here for research into the technique. If you don't trouble yourself to do so, I won't trouble myself to respond to you further.

_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 69
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 8:33:03 AM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
Status: offline
Greg,

I hope you're not relying on Cox as your only source of information.

quote:

Less than 5% of chiropractic patients present with nerve root compression and this is often a contraindication to manual adjusting.

(A) And you know this...how???

David Seaman DC's articles from 2004 are very insightful. Take a gander.

quote:

In my previous two articles, I explained why it is essentially impossible to have nerve interference.1,2


http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=46124
1.Seaman DR. Subluxation complex and nerve interference, part I. Dynamic Chiropractic March 11, 2004;22(6):23,32. www.chiroweb.com/archives/22/06/19.html.

http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=46193
2.Seaman DR. Subluxation complex and nerve interference, part II: Research efforts into nerve interference. Dynamic Chiropractic April 22, 2004;22(9):33-34.

This is from the part II article:

quote:

Doctors William Meeker, Robert Mootz and Scott Haldeman recently reviewed the literature and listed all of the research trials on spinal manipulation.1 In the studies, adjustments had been applied to patients with various conditions, nearly all of which are related to increased nociceptive activity and not due to nerve interference:


(B) Nerve root compression is 'often a contraindication to manual adjusting'? And you know this...how???

This is quoted from page 262 of the book "The chiropractic theories: a textbook of scientific research" By Robert A. Leach.

quote:

Rand researchers concluded that for sciaticas with even minor neurological signs and imaging confirming posteriorlateral herniated nucleus pulposis, spinal manipulation was deemed inappropriate.


quote:

That Cox page is from 2006, DRX has studies from 2007 and later.

Getting a little impatient with you here, I'll just go ahead and spoon feed you by quoting from the page itself:
quote:

Additionally, as of July 2007,
he has also compiled a point-by-point list of comparison. That is on pages 2 to 3 of this document.

July 2007 wouldn't be 2006, right?

Cox says there is no peer reviewed research for DRX, that's false and his studies cited only go to 2006. I don't care if he wrote this comparison in 2007, it stinks.

>Back to the point, and directly from Cox's site, we see that he doesn't make ridiculous claims of cures and in fact the following is a tenet of his that he and I have discussed via email:
quote:

With back pain, CONTROL, NOT CURE is the motto.


It's funny watching people ally with opposing partners solely to gain advantage, reminds me of my undergrad political science course in international relations.

I don't have a problem with them listing good results as long as the research is good and eventually reproduceable.

quote:

Then John Henry he did hammah,
He did make his hammah soun',
Says now one more lick fore quittin' time,
An' I'll beat this steam drill down,
-http://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/folk.html


< Message edited by Chirotalk_Friend -- July 21, 2010 8:49:27 AM >

(in reply to chiroortho)
Post #: 70
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 9:42:54 AM   
chiroortho

 

Posts: 691
Joined: February 19, 2004
Status: offline
Chirotalkfriend:

You are now creating straw men and and fallacious red herrings.  You now appear to be simply arguing rather than actually attempting to have a professional dialogue.  I am getting very suspicious about your intentions. 

Chirotalkfriend asserts:
quote:

Less than 5% of chiropractic patients present with nerve root compression and this is often a contraindication to manual adjusting.
I call you out for shooting from the hip (which you don't tolerate from others here, but which you do yourself with abandon).  You respond by quoting articles that address 'nerve interference', which has nothing to do with your original assertion, nor mine (and from the trade newspaper 'Dynamic Chiropractic', no less!).  Please tell me that you know the difference between the chiropractic 'nerve interference' thing and 'nerve root compression'.  And please tell me that you do not get your research from old newspapers.   

You refer to an outdated book written by a chiropractor (latest edition 2003) that "...sciaticas [sic] with even minor neurological signs and imaging confirming posteriorlateral herniated nucleus pulposis, spinal manipulation was deemed inappropriate."  This is so patently absurd that it requires absolutely no response.  Rarely will I dismiss something out of hand, just as a courtesy, but this absurd statement deserves to be dismissed.  Full stop.

Chirotalkfriend says:
quote:

It's funny watching people ally with opposing partners solely to gain advantage, reminds me of my undergrad political science course in international relations.
This is frankly a little weird...I have no idea what you're talking about.

Chirotalk posts without comment:
quote:

Then John Henry he did hammah,
He did make his hammah soun',
Says now one more lick fore quittin' time,
An' I'll beat this steam drill down,
-http://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/folk.html

This is downright bizarre. 

Are you trolling this site?  Please don't waste folks' time.  We attempt to address you collegially, and we get poems about John Henry having a 'hammah'. 

_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 71
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 10:16:57 AM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
Status: offline
The dialogue here could never be called serious or professional. Goodbye.

(in reply to chiroortho)
Post #: 72
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 11:42:31 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
You know, he's right. And kudos to him for recognizing that and removing the source of the problem.


(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 73
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 1:09:43 PM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
Status: offline
quote:

Go on, get out - last words are for fools who haven't said enough.
To his housekeeper, who urged him to tell her his last words so she could write them down for posterity.
~~ Karl Marx, revolutionary, d. 1883


http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/dying.html

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 74
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 2:27:09 PM   
chiroortho

 

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Joined: February 19, 2004
Status: offline
Friends applaud, the comedy is finished.
~~ Ludwig van Beethoven, composer, d. March 26, 1827

_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 75
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 7:31:58 PM   
Chirotalk_Friend

 

Posts: 27
Status: offline
quote:

Imitation is the sincerest of flattery.
Charles Caleb Colton, Lacon, volume I, no. 183
(1780 - 1832)

(in reply to chiroortho)
Post #: 76
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 21, 2010 9:39:50 PM   
chiroortho

 

Posts: 691
Joined: February 19, 2004
Status: offline
quote:

I said 'Goodbye', but I can't help myself.
~~ Chirotalk_Friend, 'How To Troll', volume 1, no. 1
(July 21, 2010)


_____________________________

Greg Priest, DC, DABCO

(in reply to Chirotalk_Friend)
Post #: 77
RE: Unisegmental Treating Techniques - July 22, 2010 6:47:05 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

The dialogue here could never be called serious or professional.


I am so glad that you have changed that.

(in reply to chiroortho)
Post #: 78
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