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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow...

 
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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 3:39:47 AM   
bonez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Reeves DPT ATC

Bonez, you are spot on.  Thing is, we pay and we pay and we pay and nothing meaningful happens regarding our real-life autonomy.  I think that is part of what you are reading here.  We think we have a better product than you guys (true or not, I think true, but I'm biased) and the public (and even some MD/DOs) don't have a clue what we know, what our training is, and what we can do.  EVERYONE knows what chiropractors do (or at least think they do) 

"my back is out" is in the common vernacular, like kleenex.  That is to say Kleenex used to be a product but now we call Puffs kleenex.  You guys and gals clean our clocks in the PR department and we pay our dues to the APTA and they play games with it.  What would be meaninful would be if someone at the APTA would have had the same interview with Obama and gotten the same letter promoting PT, simply put, nobody thought of it probably and now we are one step behind AGAIN.


Tom you are right but have fallen into the trap of which I speak. Your concern collectively should not be who are we one step behind but what are "we" doing for ourselves to be two steps in the lead.

I see here constantly that EBM will win but you forget that not all the patients (nor most) are concerned about what you just read or that it will make you move me to the right or the left but am I better what does insurance say etc...

The PT profession needs to quit fighting wars interprofessionally and INTRAprofessionally unify and become known to the groups that you wish to serve.

< Message edited by bonez -- January 13, 2009 3:43:35 AM >

(in reply to Tom Reeves DPT ATC)
Post #: 21
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 3:48:27 AM   
bonez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasOrtho

Bonez. You won't get any backlash from me. I appreciate the post and can't disagree with you.  We need to be much more aggressive in our approach and not be so defensive.  That being said, there should be no problem in getting politically pissed at someone for aligning himself with an organization that is historically hostile to the forward progression of our profession. 


Rod you are right but you need to learn like us that sometimes the "pissed" off can be mis interpreted by the lay public. In "our" infancy we found out the hard way that to be critical with medicine was not taken well the public.

That was due to medicine's entrenchment and acceptance by the public. Even if the criticizim was right (we lobbyed early that bed rest for msk conditions was wrong). What the public did accept was the stance "there is a better way" try being active with these activities instead of the bed rest. Well tah dah it was accepted by the public and the approach changed.

Like it or not there is an entrenchment with respect to chiro so I would suggest that there is likely to be better sucess with  a less antagonistic approach.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 22
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 12:06:47 PM   
TexasOrtho


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Bonez I think you may have misunderstood the original intent of my post.  The focus was not on chiropractic but Obama's support of it.  Chiropractic is hurting badly for a number of reasons independent of the tenor of my criticism.  I don't need to kick your profession when it's down.  As I said, I think the tribulations you are currently enduring will lead to a pruning of your profession to a scale that represents the true need for chiropractic.

It's worth noting that I feel the same way about medicine and physical therapy.  Tough times will often give opportunity for the dead leaves to fall off the tree and make for a stronger root system.  Chiropractic has its place but even you have to admit, you could do more with less.  But of course that wasn't the point of my post. 

The main point was Obama's support of chiropractic.  I don't agree with his politics in general so maybe that was part of the motivation for the post.  Regardless I doubt the tenor of my criticism will change on this and other issues related to Obama.  That's the beauty of our current system:  we can bitch without being worried about getting run over by a tank.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- January 13, 2009 12:11:18 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 23
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 12:37:53 PM   
SJBird55

 

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What I can't believe is that any of you believe some little one page letter response from Obama that was written during his election campaign will hold any influence to the pages upon pages of white papers that are being written and provided to those who will be involved in health care reform. 

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 24
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 5:24:23 PM   
torques

 

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"You are in essence doing what you say must not be done to you instead of getting together as a group and promoting you and not wasting time to control others."

It's because of this sentiment that  drives me to be more pro-active in advancement of  the profession. It also means be more vocal about issues that affect the profession. Chiropractic is one of them.

    I am not really attacking the chiropractic profession by making such remark. I personally feel that chiropractic is part of an alternative medicine and not allopathic in nature. The profession is encrouching on Physical Therapy to be accepted as part of the traditional model of healthcare. I maybe wrong in my views but what specifically will a chiropractor do in the hospital/outpatient clinics? "Adjustments" ? herbal therapy? Educate me. Not that there is anything wrong with alternative medicine. Chinese Medicine for instance is a great example. Chiros will practically do what PT's are doing in our current system. They are however, trying to claim manipulation as their scope of practice and trying to strip PT's of what they really can rightfully do. What's next, strip PT's from doing spinal patients, introduce holistic approaches as first line of care? Why don't we just accept other alternative practitioners. Chinese herbologists, iridologist et al. Stanley Paris is attempting to have these 2 professions merge by offering bridge program (St Augustine University) for chiros to be physical therapists. This is due to the fact that in the future the line between these 2 professions will be washed out. It is also important due to the fact that chiropractors needs to be re-indoctrinated on their faulty philosophical grounds. (Giving up theory of "subluxation"). Mixed chiros are practicing very similar to PT's if not the same.

A malicious   "attack" is what chiropractors are doing by spreading malicious lies about PT (Arcansas event), making outlandish but deceptive marketing ploys and aligning with  politicians, the legal system to advance their "scheming" cause. Indiana still doesn't have direct access and that is due to the "manipulation" clause.  This is what's making me sick.

I feel better now...LOL...

_____________________________

Julius Quezon PT DPT MTC CPed

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 25
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 8:01:20 PM   
Diane

 

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I thought Stanley Paris had (after lengthy due diligence and careful consideration) definitively decided against admitting chiropractors into his program.

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Post #: 26
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 8:08:20 PM   
torques

 

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Hmmm. I am not 100% sure but the school does not discriminate against chiros. I think they have to go through the same rigid process of admission as others. As far as what courses in chiro will be credited, I have no clue.

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Julius Quezon PT DPT MTC CPed

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Post #: 27
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 8:38:09 PM   
torques

 

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I don't want to shy away from the original post but i find this article/speech  inspiring. Kinda in line with the discussion.

http://jmmtonline.com/documents/v16n1/olson.pdf

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Julius Quezon PT DPT MTC CPed

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Post #: 28
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 9:39:34 PM   
Diane

 

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Here is a page about who is eligible to enroll (<-click). I do not see DCs listed.
As I recall, there was a long process of decision-making involved (not that I was privy to it in any way, just internet hearsay) and at the end of it, in a very gracious and apologetic letter, Paris said he was ever so sorry but that the final decision was to not include DCs into the DPT program there. I think I read the letter on Chirotalk a few years ago.

(in reply to torques)
Post #: 29
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 13, 2009 10:04:11 PM   
jesspt

 

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I think that USA was actually contemplating starting an accelerated DPT program for chiros, and that Paris, in his letter, stated that the final decision was to not initiate this program there.

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Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 30
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 12:08:06 AM   
torques

 

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Diane, Jess,
    You are right. There is no accelerated/bridge program for chiro. They have to apply like the rest of the other applicants for entry level DPT as long as they have the grades and all the prerequisites. My mistake.

http://www.usa.edu/dpt.htm

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Julius Quezon PT DPT MTC CPed

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Post #: 31
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 3:52:00 AM   
bonez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: torques

.

   I am not really attacking the chiropractic profession by making such remark. I personally feel that chiropractic is part of an alternative medicine and not allopathic in nature. The profession is encrouching on Physical Therapy to be accepted as part of the traditional model of healthcare. I maybe wrong in my views but what specifically will a chiropractor do in the hospital/outpatient clinics?

Well there is a difference in the education process for US chiro's and the rest of the world (Canada & Europe)
The Canadian system is presently establishing University based funded research chairs in each province that are not investigating subluxation. The intern process in Canada does involve hospital rounds and cliinal participation. 
 
Much of Europe has moved towards integration of Chiropractic into the "system" Denmark is a leader here and it was based on evidence driven decisions.

" Chiros will practically do what PT's are doing in our current system. They are however, trying to claim manipulation as their scope of practice and trying to strip PT's of what they really can rightfully do.

Actually there is little that stops properly trained Chiros from providing the exact services that PT presently provides. I realize that you feel the turf is yours but the actual proceedures can be learned by any health professional.
 
It is often suggested here that only PT's can provide therapy and it is a domain that chiropractic has to stay out of.
We ought to then use the same logic about manipulation since chiro's practiced it first but I personally don't see the logic in trying to "brand" it to a profession.



Stanley Paris is attempting to have these 2 professions merge by offering bridge program (St Augustine University) for chiros to be physical therapists. This is due to the fact that in the future the line between these 2 professions will be washed out.

based on the logic that this makes sense...  should we then expect manipulating PT's to cross train as chiro's?? I don't think it is necessary.
 
In the same sense that PT moved into manipulation without the benifit of cross training by the group that was doing all the manipulation at the time, we should not expect chiro's that want to move to PT like practice to have to train solely with PT instruction.


I feel better now...LOL...

(in reply to torques)
Post #: 32
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 4:54:32 AM   
Diane

 

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quote:

We ought to then use the same logic about manipulation since chiro's practiced it first

What evidence do you have that "chiro practiced it first"?
My information is that it was practiced by all kinds of different people, notably in the army, by doctors, gym trainers etc., when chiro began. Chiropractic was the first group to organize around a "technique" (i.e., manipulation) then try to monopolize it, then come to conflate their identity with it.

< Message edited by Diane -- January 14, 2009 4:59:15 AM >

(in reply to bonez)
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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 7:34:23 AM   
bonez

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Diane

quote:

We ought to then use the same logic about manipulation since chiro's practiced it first

What evidence do you have that "chiro practiced it first"?
My information is that it was practiced by all kinds of different people, notably in the army, by doctors, gym trainers etc., when chiro began. Chiropractic was the first group to organize around a "technique" (i.e., manipulation) then try to monopolize it, then come to conflate their identity with it.


Correct and we should say practiced it in an organized fashion first. Many lay groups have given exercise/stretch and used hot and cold going back to the ancient greeks. These for some might loosely be construed as the beginings of therapy.

Just as PT now encompasses more than the above list chiro uses more than just manipulation. Many posts here suggest that PT exerts a monopoly for thes actions just as you are suggesting for chiros.

< Message edited by bonez -- January 14, 2009 7:38:55 AM >

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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 12:21:55 PM   
SJBird55

 

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I honestly don't believe that chiropractic has the same knowledge base as physical therapy.  Someone who has a CVA or MS or an amputation just isn't going to have the same outcomes with chiropractic as physical therapy.  Manipulation is just a very small component of physical therapy and mainly used in outpatient physical therapy settings with primarily an orthopaedic population.  Physical therapy has depth and can be encountered in schools, in homes, in industry, in the military, in hospitals - acute, subacute, outpatient, emergency room, intensive care (adult, pediatric, neonatal), in skilled nursing facilities, and of course, in private practices.  Physical therapists have the opportunity to practice with a diverse population.  Chiropractors really don't have that much diversity.

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 35
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - January 14, 2009 3:18:41 PM   
torques

 

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"Well there is a difference in the education process for US chiro's and the rest of the world (Canada & Europe)
The Canadian system is presently establishing University based funded research chairs in each province that are not investigating subluxation. The intern process in Canada does involve hospital rounds and cliinal participation.  
Much of Europe has moved towards integration of Chiropractic into the "system" Denmark is a leader here and it was based on evidence driven decisions. "

-you did not really answer my question. Let me rephrase the question. What specifically will a chiropractor do in the hospital/out patient clinic that PT's won't be able to provide?


"Actually there is little that stops properly trained Chiros from providing the exact services that PT presently provides. I realize that you feel the turf is yours but the actual proceedures can be learned by any health professional. It is often suggested here that only PT's can provide therapy and it is a domain that chiropractic has to stay out of. We ought to then use the same logic about manipulation since chiro's practiced it first but I personally don't see the logic in trying to "brand" it to a profession."

- I find this remark absurd and insulting. PT is not shake or bake  if that's what you are implying. It is special and our skill set cannot be learned by other health professionals without getting formal PT training. Be specific with your terms. "Therapy" being provided by PT's again is a vague generalization. I will tell you what I and a lot of PT's want chiros to stay out of: Lobbying against our right to practice manipulation, for one. Stop pretending and confusing the public and the legal system that you are not encroaching on our turf as orthopaedic PT's. Be precise with what your profession can really offer to be part of the allopathic system. Without the "subluxation" theory, where do you base your profession out of? Are you wanting to be called "rehab specialist"? spinal experts? Let be honest, mixed chiros are practicing orthopaedic Physical Therapy.  I am glad you feel that manipulation should not be branded to a profession. However, it doesn't change the way I feel about your profession.

"Stanley Paris is attempting to have these 2 professions merge by offering bridge program (St Augustine University) for chiros to be physical therapists. This is due to the fact that in the future the line between these 2 professions will be washed out. based on the logic that this makes sense...  should we then expect manipulating PT's to cross train as chiro's?? I don't think it is necessary.In the same sense that PT moved into manipulation without the benifit of cross training by the group that was doing all the manipulation at the time, we should not expect chiro's that want to move to PT like practice to have to train solely with PT instruction."
 
- I am not speaking for Paris but I think his intention was to give chiropractors a chance to see the "light" and opportunity to maintream. I am referring to the mixed chiros. A lot of you are shying away from what traditional chiropractic really is.I will be polite and use the term "holistic".
There is no need for PT to crosstrain to chiro. Manipulation (HVLA) is a very small portion of what we do. One can learn the techniques in 2-3 days seminar. I personally use it sparingly for main intent to loosen "joint restriction". I don't see the need to even use it for neurophysiologic effect. Other methods are safer and adequate. Chiros on the other hand needs to follow the evidence base route and to do it,one has to reject the very core of their profession. Jumping to PT is a viable option.

"Correct and we should say practiced it in an organized fashion first. Many lay groups have given exercise/stretch and used hot and cold going back to the ancient greeks. These for some might loosely be construed as the beginings of therapy."

-I don't see the point of this statement. Chiropractic is based on flawed principle which to this date is embraced by their profession. That is the point. I don't think your justification is warranted  just by looking at  your profession's history itself. PT's manipulate joints for mechanical purpose ONLY. Chiros continue to "adjust" the spine. Very clear difference. 

"Just as PT now encompasses more than the above list, chiro uses more than just manipulation." 
 
-please explain. enlighten me. 
 
 
 






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Julius Quezon PT DPT MTC CPed

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 36
RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - April 9, 2009 10:18:22 PM   
Optimum

 

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I heard this thread existed but was shocked to see it was true. Throw up in your mouth because the President could be pro-chiropractic?  Man, I know we have some fundamental differences but isn't that comment a little...you know...Childish?

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - April 10, 2009 1:37:42 AM   
proud

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Optimum

I heard this thread existed but was shocked to see it was true. Throw up in your mouth because the President could be pro-chiropractic?  Man, I know we have some fundamental differences but isn't that comment a little...you know...Childish?



Some(?) fundamental differences...

The president is pro avoiding the topic at this point. I am sure he could care less about either PT or chiropractic actually. Although he should given that expenditure of low back pain has reached 85 billion in the great US of A( surpassing that spent on cancer...).

The thing is however that the "bleeding" will not stop unless some regulation occurs...and that will not involve chiropractic once all the research and data is sifted through. There is nothing there to support chiropractic care. The irony is that the best research supporting spinal manipulation was performed by....you guessed it...Physical therapists. And it suggests only a small sub-group of patients actually benefit from spinal manipulation.

Then add that cervical manipulation is slowly being demonstrated in the literature as providing very little benefit( if any) over mobilization...while exposing the patient to risk( small or large is irrelevant for a procedure with no known benefit).

The facts will not be lost when the wheat gets separated from the chaff over the coming years.

(in reply to Optimum)
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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - April 10, 2009 5:23:12 PM   
lee9786

 

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bottom line... Do what works for the patient.  If it doesn't work don't do it.  Don't waste the patient's time and resources.  Answer this question for me... pretend I'm your potential customer/patient... I have some type of musculoskeletal dysfunction... Why should I choose your chiropractic service over going to see a physical therapist?  What will you do differently that I couldn't do at a PT clinic?

(in reply to bonez)
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RE: Obama and Chiropractic: Wow... - April 10, 2009 8:27:08 PM   
Optimum

 

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I want to say I am not trying to stir an argument, I just think that talking about throwing up in your mouth in the thought the new president may be pro-chiropractic is a bit childish.

Now, it is perfectly fine that we disagree on some points.
Proud, I disagree with your rather vague assumption with no backing of data
that PTs have dont the best research on the validation for manipulation.  I teach manipultion
for an osteopathic residency program and am involved in research.  The best research to date
on the efficacy and outcomes are from a collaborative effort between chiropractic and a medical school Orthopedic Department.  I also work closely with physical therapy and have a great working relationship. Some of you seem to be under the false assumption that because PTs now do manipulation, chiropractors dont perform techniques utilized by PTs.  I am certified in Graston, went thru the seminars for Mulligan and MDT.  I also see many PTs taking seminars that were founded by Chiropractors such as ART and Kinesiotape. 
I don't view an us against them attitude. There is a lot of overlap in our professions and it gets closer everyday. Less fighting and more collaboration would do us both a world off good.

Lee to answer your question, I am far more cost effective in the treatment on Intervertebral Disc Injuries in our hospital than PT. The data the past 5 years I have been there shows a quicker return to work and lower costs comparing treatments used solely by Chiropractic vs PT. I am sure they beat me in other area's. I dont think that makes either better than the other. They also often ask me to look at their patients to rule out disease processes and the patient satisfaction ratio has been much higher in patients we co treat.
Just food for thought.

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 40
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