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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENS

 
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 12:20:48 PM   
Jon Newman

 

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quote:

Bob and I interacted privately on the SS forum.--TO


I will say one thing for Bob.  He uses his time to personally communicate with his critics in an attempt to resolve conflicts.  Kudos to him for that.  That's something to be proud of in my opinion.

quote:

In fact, sound theories must be fallable to be scientific.--TO


Rod, I think a better word here would be falsifiable.  (<---Click it.  Check out "criticisms" also.)

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 101
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 2:03:11 PM   
TexasOrtho


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I stand corrected.  Falsifiable it is.

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Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 102
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 7:02:31 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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And in the past, Bob has been met with arguments about the whole MFR issue. How do you know you are handling the fascia? How come you call it MFR when at the same time NOT prescribing to the stuff the actual trademark holder, JFB, is claiming? Is that not a contradiction?
No-one has ever said you should stop TREATING your patients. Never. You could probably start to consider the actual physiological effects of your handling in a different light. Like - it is very, very unlikely that it is fascial.

Do not stop treating. Good hands-on will always be effective to a certain degree. Think about the explanation, and think about whether you want to continue to call it "MFR" - what with all the "energy cysts" and "supressed memories" and "time regression" and "falling into the abyss".......

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Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 103
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 7:04:50 PM   
proud

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sebastian Asselbergs

And in the past, Bob has been met with arguments about the whole MFR issue. How do you know you are handling the fascia? How come you call it MFR when at the same time NOT prescribing to the stuff the actual trademark holder, JFB, is claiming? Is that not a contradiction?
No-one has ever said you should stop TREATING your patients. Never. You could probably start to consider the actual physiological effects of your handling in a different light. Like - it is very, very unlikely that it is fascial.

Do not stop treating. Good hands-on will always be effective to a certain degree. Think about the explanation, and think about whether you want to continue to call it "MFR" - what with all the "energy cysts" and "supressed memories" and "time regression" and "falling into the abyss".......


Well stated Seb.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 104
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 11:04:48 PM   
bobmfrptx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Diane

NOTE: THIS POST IS ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION
By Diane PT

quote:

I "neuromodulate" pain by applying the MFR techniques I have learned


This is a nonsequitur Robert Mollica.


It was written tongue in cheek  Diane.

quote:



If you are "neuromodulate" pain you had better have a treatment construct and technique that prioritizes the nervous system, where pain is produced, and skin, unless you plan on removing it from your patient first and putting it back on them later. My understanding is that "MFR" does something to fascia, or presumes to..


Does fascia connect to the skin?  can it be a handle? Is it far reaching?
does it work inconjunction with the nervous system  providing mechanical input to initiate the process of modifying output?

quote:



As far as I am aware, based on having read more neuroscience textbooks than you may have seen in your entire existence, fascia does not "hurt" and will likely never need "treating" for pain issues. No "technique" even needs to exist for it. Nor does fascia convey signals to the brain: neural structures (buried in fascia as they are in other tissues) convey info that may be perceived as noxious by the nervous system, with said perception perhaps resulting in the construction of a pain output/possible sensitization of body bits, whereupon someone may come and see you for some hands-on... but whatever is going on in a system that rights itself as yours did, involved handling of skin, not fascia. Skin has the most variety and greatest complement of sensory receptors, and the brain will get the whatever input it requires from skin. Not from fascia.


My reading list is pretty varied, and not just focused on one tissue of this amazing  human structure.   Pain is an output, got that along time ago.  So my skin was handled but my fascia was not?  How do you separate them? 

quote:


Barnes laid his money on the mesoderm and has turned himself inside out to try to justify his technique name, MFR (which he "borrowed" from osteopathy BTW.. he did not come up with that himself), and has decided to act as if he had some kind of proprietory right over it, which is beside the fact that the name never made any treatment sense in the first place.

I thought we were discussing techniques not the presenter.  Barnes does give the osteopaths credit for the term MFR.    Did you give the neuromodulation society credit for your term?  http://www.neuromodulation.com/
Again Diane, I do not see how one can separate the components of the human structure and treat just one element focusing on neurology but leaving out cellular biology and mechanotransduction. 

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 105
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 22, 2008 12:02:43 AM   
Diane

 

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quote:

It was written tongue in cheek Diane.


Pardon me then, I didn't see the emoticon for that.

quote:

Does fascia connect to the skin?

Yes. Through adventitia.
quote:

can it be a handle?

I doubt it. Skin slides around on it too much, plus you'd have to take the skin clear off to get at it, plus it's more firmly attached to the top of muscle than it is to the bottom of skin.

Perhaps you are referring to adventitia?

Perhaps it would be good to clarify "which" fascia you think you are targeting... also it's embryonic origin would be nice. The fascia that covers muscle is mesodermal - the connective tissue around neural structures, Schwann cells, endo-, epi-, and peri- neurium, come from neural crest cells (a late ectodermal cell migration with somewhat different properties, which makes a whole load of heavily innervated structures including teeth, glands, and including the entire peripheral nervous system itself, which is plugged into itself).

quote:

Is it far reaching?

Yes. However I do not think that helps you to prove your point, that it's a "handle" or a very good treatment target, or that it can "communicate" anything the CNS will be interested except unless there's too much stress on a part, e.g., like a bear chewing your leg off. Mostly it's there (as a physical structure) to dissipate stress, not as a signalling structure that aggregates it for perusal by the CNS. The CNS already has a perfectly good signalling structure in the periphery - the PNS.

quote:

does it work inconjunction with the nervous system providing mechanical input to initiate the process of modifying output?


Not particularly. It forms sleeves around small fascicles of nerves that branch up to and embed into skin (Nash). Like any neural sleeve, the epineurium etc around these fascicles are from ectodermal origin.

This doesn't mean the "tissue" itself is sensitive however - transmission of a "signal", to the brain, from which it can manufacture a "pain" experience or the downregulation of a pain experience it previously manufactured, will be conveyed by whatever neural structures are embedded within it, same as with any other mesodermal structure.

quote:

My reading list is pretty varied


Yes, I've noticed
quote:

and not just focused on one tissue of this amazing human structure.

Yes, I've noticed.

quote:

Pain is an output, got that along time ago.

OK.
quote:

So my skin was handled but my fascia was not?

Your skin was handled and your fascia may have been tugged along with it, but so what? There are mechanoreceptors embedded in adventia, fascia (Stecco). But... there are several types of mechanoreceptors, exteroceptors, thermoreceptors, polymodal wide range receptors that can code for anything, and nociceptors, in the epidermal/dermal layer of skin (too many sources to name).

The signalling your brain "needed" in oder to deconstruct the pain it had been presenting you with, was not dismantled because your fascia was pulled on, but rather because your skin was handled properly, it would seem, in the kinesthetic sense at least.

quote:

How do you separate them?

Conceptually bob, then you choose to build your pain concepts around the one that makes the most sense, not the least.

(in reply to bobmfrptx)
Post #: 106
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 22, 2008 12:15:39 AM   
Diane

 

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More for bob:
quote:

I thought we were discussing techniques not the presenter. Barnes does give the osteopaths credit for the term MFR.


Where? I never noticed that in any writings he has authored. Do you have a link?

quote:

Did you give the neuromodulation society credit for your term? http://www.neuromodulation.com/


No. It is a generic term that denotes deliberate input given to a nervous system, in expectation of it giving back a new output, as far as I know.

quote:

Again Diane, I do not see how one can separate the components of the human structure and treat just one element focusing on neurology but leaving out cellular biology and mechanotransduction.


Because the neural structures of the body are responsible for both coding the information, then decoding/analyzing it at several levels simultaneously, then redistributing it back out to cells as information cells can use to make their proteins etc. with, for overall organism function. It is the main system between a human and death of said human - this is why it is important, bob.

See above for mechanotransduction. Skin has it all, fascia has a bit.

If you are into cellular biology, why would you want to leave out the cellular biology and synaptic communication that occurs in the nervous system in favor of whatever might or mostly might not go on in fascia? Why would anybody? I don't get that.

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 107
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 22, 2008 12:51:02 AM   
bobmfrptx

 

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ORIGINAL: Diane

More for bob:
quote:

I thought we were discussing techniques not the presenter. Barnes does give the osteopaths credit for the term MFR.

Where? I never noticed that in any writings he has authored. Do you have a link?


In MFR 1, First course, first day, first morning.
quote:


If you are into cellular biology, why would you want to leave out the cellular biology and synaptic communication that occurs in the nervous system in favor of whatever might or mostly might not go on in fascia? Why would anybody? I don't get that.

Why would you think I do omit anything?

< Message edited by bobmfrptx -- August 22, 2008 12:55:37 AM >

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 108
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 22, 2008 1:10:38 AM   
TexasOrtho


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...shades of Tyson v Douglas 1990.

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to bobmfrptx)
Post #: 109
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 24, 2008 2:37:57 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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Any further answers BOB?
quote:

How do you know you are handling the fascia? How come you call it MFR when at the same time NOT prescribing to the stuff the actual trademark holder, JFB, is claiming? Is that not a contradiction?


Anything?

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 110
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 27, 2008 11:34:10 PM   
SJBird55

 

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Over at EIM... all the MFR discussions were removed.  I'm not sure the details.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that an attorney can control discussions that focus upon the lack of evidence, the weird social structure (for lack of a better word) and the lack of a reasonable explanation for treatment rationale.  I view the option chosen by John Barnes as not only a bully tactic, but also that of a cowardly person.  The demand for reasonable explanations behind interventions and the demand for evidence must be powerfully threatening.  The days of being a guru are over...

For those of you who believe that the attorney involved in all of this breached professional conduct standards, there is action you can take.  Read over at EIM what option is available for those of you who do not believe that Joe acted very attorneyish.  Here is the link:  http://blog.myphysicaltherapyspace.com/2008/08/things-that-mak.html


(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 111
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 27, 2008 11:43:45 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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Yeah, it is sad that throwing money at an attorney can actually have a chance in court - especially on the stuff that was said there. I can assure you, NOW I am even more determined to use ANY legal means to criticise, mock, and fight the MFR concepts, courses and their CEUs, and will discuss the bogus science with all students in both the PT and MT programmes I am involved - even more vigorously than before.

I AM the Chair of Health Sciences Advisory Board for Massage Therapy at the college - guess what is coming up at the next meeting. I love the word "sciences" in our dept name.

Thanks JFB, for giving me more motivation AND ammunition to fight the pervasive NON-SCIENCE in the courses you have created, and to fight the self-serving and self-aggrandizing pseudo-psycho babble you sell as: "revolutionary, breakthrough" approach. Thanks.

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 112
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 28, 2008 3:11:50 AM   
Diane

 

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Here is a link to the latest Jason EIM thread, where he has formally announced his retraction. I guess he is following the legalities of this.. seems a bit obsessive (my-opinion-only etcetcetc) to have swung such a heavy hammer at free speech.
I posted the lawyer letter and Valerie's contributions on that thread, just to remind everyone of the sort of people who cause legal kuffuffles, sturm und drang, because they refuse to grow a thick enough skin to engage in some critical debate about what they do (somewhat dubious) and perhaps more importantly what they THINK they do (definitely dubious). Very anti-scientific of them. And bullying (myopiniononly etcetcetc).
Here is a link to Jason's new thread: Myofascial Release Posts Retracted

< Message edited by Diane -- August 28, 2008 3:16:01 AM >

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 113
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - November 4, 2008 4:03:45 AM   
hennry

 

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The Myofascial release techniques stem from the foundation that fascia, a tough connective tissue reorganizes itself in response to physical stress and thickens along lines of tension.
------------------
hennry

Drug Rehab

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 114
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - November 4, 2008 4:19:44 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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henry. Did you even read this thread in its entirety? Or look at previous discussions about the validity of the approach?
Or should I call you "troll"?

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Post #: 115
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - November 4, 2008 11:58:20 AM   
SJBird55

 

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He's just tracking how many clicks he gets on his site when he comments on forums...

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Post #: 116
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