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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENSTAFF

 
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 1:29:27 PM   
Shill

 

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From: Madison WI USA
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"When lies are told long enough, some will accept these lies and distortions as truths." 
 
Look,.. over there, a forest!  Oh man, I cant see it, the trees are blocking my view!
 
Your house is glass......now drop those rocks.
 
Reflection.  Listen to what you say.    You may realize that your distortions are equally untruthful.
 
 

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 81
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 1:35:34 PM   
PTupdate.com


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From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Steve....You hittin' the bottle again?

_____________________________

John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com

(in reply to Shill)
Post #: 82
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 3:18:39 PM   
proud

 

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I think the best response from this crew and those implicated would be to provide the facts to our associations and colleges strongly urging them to investigate the validity of MFR and allowing PT's to practice and bill under the PT umbrella.

I have no problem with someone wanting to practice yahoo, hippie treatments without merit....just don't associate that with me please. I went to university....paid a fair amount and came out with critical thinking skills. I just don't need these people dumbing down my profession and the hard work I put into it.

I say....let's start something productive, factual and without emotion to drive this garbage into the abyss where it belongs. And if JBB MFR can effectively defend itself both objectively and scientifically.....then that is all we ask( we all know t'aint going to happen....but let's give them the rope and let them hang themselves).

Any takers?

< Message edited by proud -- August 20, 2008 3:26:25 PM >

(in reply to PTupdate.com)
Post #: 83
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 4:18:10 PM   
Diane

 

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I like that idea very much proud. I'll be back with more about this shortly.

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 84
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 4:32:10 PM   
Diane

 

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Here's a link to Denialism blog, and a post called Galileo, Semmelweis and YOU!, by a medical student, I came upon recently. Check out his little list of points he feels should be included in "good" clinical science thinking. I think it's quite a good list actually. I've bolded a few bits.
quote:

Relevance: an idea should bear directly on a real clinical problem

Testability: it should be possible to test the idea to see if it has merit (this includes Popperian falsifiability).

Plausibility: the idea should have some basis in reality and should not have been birthed de novo from between someone's buttocks. It should not require a "suspension of disbelief" or "open-mindedness".

Abandonability: the poser of the question should be willing to abandon the idea if it is proved false. Moving the goal posts, invoking a conspiracy, or any other deus ex machina is never necessary for a good idea.

Modifiability: an idea can be rationally modified and retested if it may still contain a kernel of truth despite failing one or another tests. Any idea that is held so tightly that reality must be modified to fit the idea should be highly suspect.


What do you think proud? Include this little list? Number three is my favorite. I think JFBMFR fails on points 3-5 and hasn't done much with point two. About point 5, when a financial edifice has been built around an idea, it seems to me the builder of the edifice will be highly unlikely to be willing to modify said idea. Outside of PT with it then...

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 85
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 4:47:20 PM   
proud

 

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Yes, I agree with all those. I think THE most important one is NOT moving the goal posts to accomodate an idea

Also #5...."...Any idea that is held so tightly that reality must be modified to fit the idea should be highly suspect...."
 
Speaking of bizzare, difficult to modify behavoirs, I found this little nugget from Diane Lee's page:
 
http://dianelee.ca/courses/spinalManip.php

In it this course: "is limited to physiotherapists with IFOMT recognized certification in spinal manipulative therapy only"
 
I believe there is no real need for exclusive training seminars, long winded, expensive courses etc.

The key is to keep those eyes wide open, read, apply and think about what you are doing. Belonging to a club....is generally a bad idea.

Diane....I thought about sending the CPA a little quirp but I understand this has been done before( no names mentioned but I highly respect this Ontario PT...hint APTEI). In any case....if I understand things....he got nowhere.

Strange...if you have any ideas on how to hold their feet to the fire, I'd love to know.
 

< Message edited by proud -- August 20, 2008 5:17:13 PM >

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 86
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 5:16:59 PM   
Diane

 

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Proud,
quote:

Diane....I thought about sending the CPA a little quirp but I understand this has been done before( no names mentioned but I highly respect this Ontario PT...hint APTEI). In any case....if I understand things....he got now where.

It's a bureaucracy. When dealing with bureaucracies, it is often necessary to apply constant spaced repetition. Once is never enough for any bureaucracy - it's a lot of work to turn a ship away from an iceberg (probably at least 500 meetings worth); it takes some foresight and doggedness, and stick-to-itiveness. Constant spaced repetition, ideally not from the same person every time.

< Message edited by Diane -- August 20, 2008 5:21:45 PM >

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 87
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 5:48:12 PM   
TexasOrtho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: proud

I think the best response from this crew and those implicated would be to provide the facts to our associations and colleges strongly urging them to investigate the validity of MFR and allowing PT's to practice and bill under the PT umbrella.

I have no problem with someone wanting to practice yahoo, hippie treatments without merit....just don't associate that with me please. I went to university....paid a fair amount and came out with critical thinking skills. I just don't need these people dumbing down my profession and the hard work I put into it.

I say....let's start something productive, factual and without emotion to drive this garbage into the abyss where it belongs. And if JBB MFR can effectively defend itself both objectively and scientifically.....then that is all we ask( we all know t'aint going to happen....but let's give them the rope and let them hang themselves).

Any takers?


Excellent post. I agree completely. 

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 88
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 5:48:21 PM   
rwillcott

 

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Proud,

I would be glad to be part of a constant, repetitive discussion with the CPA.  It may be helpful if we can discuss a clear point that we want to make.  Then if we could get all Canadian members of this site to agree to call the CPA at set times.

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 89
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 6:05:11 PM   
bobmfrptx

 

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Proud,
I went to university, paid alot of money, learned to think like a PT, (actually trained to think like a PT, Penn was big on this) had terrible sciatica, went to boo-koo PT's, McKenzie, was one, who all said I needed surgery.  Went to John Barnes on a dare and his handling techniques eliminated my leg pain in 15 minutes.  4 years of pain and dysfunction changed in a quarter of an hour.  It astonished me as well as intrigued me.   I use the same and self-modified MFR techniques and have similiar experiences with my clients now and for the past 20 years.  I am a PT, I bill manual therapy, kinetic activity, therapeutic exercise and neuromuscular reeducation for my services.  I accept insurance and am proud to be a PT.  I have a huge referral base, treat several MD's, most of the hospitals nurses and have a waiting list of patients, since what I do is labor intensive and is most effective if i am not hurried and harried limits me to 15 to 20 clients 4 days a week.

My name is Robert Mollica PT and I am proud of what I have learned, what I use and what I incorporate in my treatment programs. 
Trying to convince me and my clients that the techniques are hocus pocus BS  will be a challenge.  I still remain open-minded and try to keep current on most of the new research and theories especially on pain, its causes and effects.  If you have a problem with the theory, (I know most of you do) that is fine with me. I can accept that, but do not lump me in with the airy fairies category of an uneducated, hippie flower child  dumbing down your profession which some of you feel MFR practioners are like.  My results speak for themselve and I am now sending out surveys to my clients of the last 5 years to have an idea how they are fairing post treatment.  Since I live in a very small town, I already know that mostly they are well and are doing fine.  I will make available my findings by the New Year. Lets continue the dialogue regarding theories, it is healthy if conducted with respect to the individual.   I don't agree with all of them from any one camp. Critical thinking, I guess.

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 90
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 6:44:48 PM   
JSPT

 

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Diane- I love your cited list of red flags.

Here is one that I didn't see mentioned: Any treatment theory which even mentions the word quantum should shoot up a big bright flare.

(in reply to bobmfrptx)
Post #: 91
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 7:06:51 PM   
proud

 

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Robert,

The irony of your post is in itself...intriguing( speaking of critical thinking in all). It's all anecdotal Robert. Perhaps what you do is make the patient "feel good". Perhaps you talk to them about their kids, their parents. Perhaps you are a fun an interesting distraction for the MD's you treat. Who knows? It's all non scrutinized data.

Claiming to have a large caseload of "satisfied" customers means nothing. Nothing at all. I've posted a link to an excellent article that speaks about the properties of "patient satisfaction". Have you read it?

Massage therapists can have large caseloads.....but Robert....it's the information you provide to clients that matters in the end.

Is it accurate with what is know? If not....you are only feeding the neurological flames in my opinion. It's okay to neuromodulate pain in any manner you wish....so long as the take home message the patient gleans is accurate and not potentially harmful.

Sorry Robert....we do not see eye to eye on this one. It appears you have missed the boat. No worries....the boat will have many stops along the way. Hope you hop on soon.

quote:

Trying to convince me and my clients that the techniques are hocus pocus BS  will be a challenge.


It's not you that will need convincing. It's third party payors and our own regulatory bodies. And really, that should not be a challange at all....just open up....oh I don't know....ANY JOURNAL

< Message edited by proud -- August 20, 2008 8:11:18 PM >

(in reply to JSPT)
Post #: 92
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 9:25:37 PM   
bobmfrptx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: proud

Is it accurate with what is know? If not....you are only feeding the neurological flames in my opinion. It's okay to neuromodulate pain in any manner you wish....so long as the take home message the patient gleans is accurate and not potentially harmful.


I "neuromodulate" pain by applying the MFR techniques I have learned inconjunction with all the other beneficial techniques I have learned thru my 27 years of experience.  Of course you may ask which technique  it was that got the result? since I have no studies I could not answer that to your satisfaction.  All I can point to is the fact that a lot of my clients had been to 3 or 4 PT's, or chiro's before seeing me and had no relief or were worse. Anecdotal again, true.  Hence, my planned survey. 
What potential harm are you purposing ?



quote:

It's not you that will need convincing. It's third party payors and our own regulatory bodies. And really, that should not be a challange at all....just open up....oh I don't know....ANY JOURNAL


I get referrals from several MVA insurances and Workers Comp as well since my treatment is effective and costs them less money.  One of the HMO's in my region has added me to the preferred provider list since the costs of my treatments are less than my competitor for the same ICD#9 codes.  The techniques I use are cost effective.  I would love to do some research on the effectiveness of MFR. Would you?

< Message edited by bobmfrptx -- August 20, 2008 9:30:19 PM >

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 93
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 9:54:48 PM   
Diane

 

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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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NOTE: THIS POST IS ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION
By Diane PT

quote:

I "neuromodulate" pain by applying the MFR techniques I have learned


This is a nonsequitur Robert Mollica.

If you are "neuromodulate" pain you had better have a treatment construct and technique that prioritizes the nervous system, where pain is produced, and skin, unless you plan on removing it from your patient first and putting it back on them later. My understanding is that "MFR" does something to fascia, or presumes to..

As far as I am aware, based on having read more neuroscience textbooks than you may have seen in your entire existence, fascia does not "hurt" and will likely never need "treating" for pain issues. No "technique" even needs to exist for it. Nor does fascia convey signals to the brain: neural structures (buried in fascia as they are in other tissues) convey info that may be perceived as noxious by the nervous system, with said perception perhaps resulting in the construction of a pain output/possible sensitization of body bits, whereupon someone may come and see you for some hands-on... but whatever is going on in a system that rights itself as yours did, involved handling of skin, not fascia. Skin has the most variety and greatest complement of sensory receptors, and the brain will get the whatever input it requires from skin. Not from fascia.

In your case, unless your skin was magically removed first so your fascia could be treated, then the skin was put back on after... I am not inclined to believe you:
1. about fascia being some kind of conductor;
2. about handling it resulting in some kind of relief of longterm pain symptoms.

At the moment it's a treatment myth and not a particularly good one.

Of course, we've only been over this about ten thousand times already. Barnes laid his money on the mesoderm and has turned himself inside out to try to justify his technique name, MFR (which he "borrowed" from osteopathy BTW.. he did not come up with that himself), and has decided to act as if he had some kind of proprietory right over it, which is beside the fact that the name never made any treatment sense in the first place. So he has layered it over and plastered it with constructs that have no validity (see the lists of points above, see 3 through 5).

< Message edited by Diane -- August 20, 2008 10:13:23 PM >

(in reply to bobmfrptx)
Post #: 94
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 11:44:30 PM   
proud

 

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quote:



Hence, my planned survey.


Again....the scientific model has eluded you. A "survey"  is pretty close to useless.


quote:

What potential harm are you purposing ?


Well that depends I guess. Misinformation can be very harmful....not just physiologically but psychologically as well. Surely you know this after 27 years?


quote:

I get referrals from several MVA insurances and Workers Comp as well since my treatment is effective and costs them less money.


I'd like to see that stats


 
quote:

I would love to do some research on the effectiveness of MFR. Would you?


well...it depends again. Yes I would like to see some research of course. But I'd like the rational and theory to be sound first and foremost. Wouldn't you?

You know what....I think MFR would prove to be effective compared to NO TREATMENT. So many variables can result in positive therapeutic outcomes( even talking to patient about their weekend can be "therapeutic"...effective even for some people).

But the scientific foundation is weak...non existent. So I strongly feel it is ethically wrong to proceed with explainations knowing they are wrong. We are professionals Robert. With that designation comes a moral obligation....to persue truth. You say you spend your time trying to understand pain...then you must have missed the appropriate literature.


(in reply to bobmfrptx)
Post #: 95
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 11:58:53 PM   
TexasOrtho


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I think we've officially drifted into an entirely different topic.  Is there any objection to continuing this discussion on another thread.  Myofascial deconstruction might be a good working title.

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 96
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 12:55:55 AM   
rwillcott

 

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Sounds like a good ideae TO. 

Simply surveying clients is no indication of the effectiveness of a treatment.  It may be that the clinician is a great active listener.  Patients simply enjoy being treated by this 'clinician' regardless of the form of treatment.  The 'clinician' could be performing CST, MFR, Feldenkris etc.  With certain populations the form of treatment is of no importance.  It's how the patient is accepted in the clinic.  Someone who is anxious and has a poor social environment will be completely sastified seeing a clinician tha remembers that they put a new deck on their house over the weekend.  Or perhaps can discuss this weeks episod of 'House'.  The clinician could be laying hot rocks on them for their back pain.  They couldn't care less.  Someone is paying attention to them.  Therefore they are sastified.  Should this be billed to an insurance company.  Of course not. 

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 97
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 3:30:23 AM   
ginger

 

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Dianne
That is the kind of bullying that got you kicked off RE , not saved by your own insights , you have been invited to speak , but not to test the limits of tolerance of those who choose to offer their opinions with a dash of humility. Try just once more to behave is if your thoughts and opinions were equally valid  , rather than the holy truth. This may mean that posters  like BOBMFRPTX will feel comfortable enough to share insights and experiences, rather than hide their bushels. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why you have polarised RE and SS.  It cannot be because you have better techniques than others. Your skin stretching stuff is an odd enough bullet to bite , but grandstanding with the beligerance of a hippo is not welcome.
On a better note, BOB, great to hear you have success with your eclectic gathering of manual therapies. I can appreciate your desire to reveal the means to your success and hope you continue to do so here. I would be very interested to hear of some cases with the details of your interventions outlined.
Cheers

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 98
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 3:42:34 AM   
PTupdate.com


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Bob may very well have techniques that work for him and resolve patient issues.  His next step will be documentation using validated outcomes and questionnaires.  Are his treatments working for the reasons that he was taught by Barnes et al, or for some other reason?  Perhaps his manual therapy is truly mobilizing or releasing a restriction on a nerve branch that was causing pain, instead of releasing some "trapped memory in fascia"  Is Bob supposed to stop practicing simply because his outcomes and treatment are not currently documented?  Would that scenario put most of us in a jam?

_____________________________

John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com

(in reply to ginger)
Post #: 99
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 21, 2008 4:04:17 AM   
TexasOrtho


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Bob and I interacted privately on the SS forum.  I found him to be passionate about his beliefs, but willing to listen to others' opinions and statements of fact.  He takes a harder beating than he deserves from a variety of sources.  While I disagree with the theoretical and practical basis for his treatments, I am ready to be convinced otherwise.

The science we are discussing here is not math and there are no proofs, despite claims to the contrary.  There can be no guarantees as to what new evidence will emerge to support or refute specific theories.  In fact, sound theories must be fallible to be scientific.  Let's lay it out there on the table with all the transparency science permits and see what results.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 21, 2008 2:05:02 PM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to PTupdate.com)
Post #: 100
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