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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENS

 
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 1:26:44 PM   
Shill

 

Posts: 1377
Joined: February 14, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
Does one have to show harm from these purportedly malicious occurrances?  How is this done?  Is it monetary harm, such as business losses?  How can this be chalked up to the remarks?  Is there a "feelings-hurt-o-meter"? What would this meter need to register to show harm?  What bounces off one person can be slander to another?  This is an interesting foray into the depths of legalism.  What ever happened to "sticks and stones?" 
Seems to me these cases should be weighed on their impact to society as a whole, not necessarily one person. 

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 61
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 2:15:50 PM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
Unfortunately this is not how the legal system looks at it.  Slander and libel (I'm now an expert because I found the wiki) have been around since the Roman empire and exist to punish those who have gone the extra mile to willfully harm someone with words.  It basically sets a limit on what lengths you can go to calling someone a #$%#$%.  Those limits vary between societies, but they do exist.  It is Barne's opinion through this lawyer that one or all of the defendants exceeded this limit by some degree.  I think it's a very small degree, but like Bonez said, it will be for someone else to decide.

Bas...maybe I should have chosen better terminology than 'civil'.  I admit to dropping the occaisional bomb, but I like to think of them as precision-guided munitions.  Perhaps, sophisticated would have been a better term.  I have strong opinions, BUT the sophistication to understand others may have valid points and (God forbid) may even be right.  This humility seems to be absent from some of the defendants' online rhetoric.  Not all...but some.

I think this whole mess will likely lead to a more precise and sophisticated criticism of MFR without the superfluous rhetoric.  This form of dialogue will lead to a more rapid demise of fringe therapies such as MFR.  Right now the level of criticism is "look at how nutty this guy is...look at how wacked out this approach is...".  These may be all valid points, BUT they speak more to the credibility of the person making these statements than of those they criticize. 

I'm not saying I occupy any sort of high ground here.  All I am saying is that more fact and less emotion will result in better momentum toward pushing MFR further into the abyss.


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Shill)
Post #: 62
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 3:12:20 PM   
proud

 

Posts: 1834
Joined: March 23, 2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasOrtho
All I am saying is that more fact and less emotion will result in better momentum toward pushing MFR further into the abyss.



But you see Rod, one of the problems within our profession is passivity. I'd bet 9/10 PT's err on the side of extreme caution when critically analysis someone's work. Even our associations and colleges seem confused with what to do with these purveyors of garbage treatment. I have often felt that many in positions within colleges and associations are not who I want representing me. If they can allow adds for fringe treatments and then yabber on about EBM....they must be "off their nut" also. I wonder how many "fringe" treatment courses they have ettended and subsequently practice themselves?

I could be wrong but after 11 years of practice, one would think I would see LESS fringe treatment with emerging evidence....but instead I see MORE. Who's fault is that?

Emotion. I think it's a missing aspect. When it comes to fringe, nutty, outlandish treatments.....we need to be factual, vocal and yes....emotional.

It's the patient we are fighting for afterall.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 63
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 5:04:44 PM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
Joined: April 25, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
Rod,

I agree with some of what you say but this...

quote:

Right now the level of criticism is "look at how nutty this guy is...look at how wacked out this approach is...".  These may be all valid points, BUT they speak more to the credibility of the person making these statements than of those they criticize.


I completely disagree with.  Jason S., Jason H., Cory, John and Barrett are all very credible individuals and have leveled excellent criticism that cannot be simplified to "look at how nutty this guy is." 

The fact that the target of their criticism has taken the time to comb through their comments to select certain aspects of their criticism to pursue legally (assuming Barnes himself actually did take the time to do this) rather than to respond to their critiques personally is what is frustrating and currently at issue. 

Also, I agree with proud on this: factual information does not have to be presented free of emotive language. 

Additionally, the presence of emotive language does not make something less valid or defamatory.  It may (or may not) help with the reception of the material. 

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 64
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 5:17:50 PM   
Diane

 

Posts: 1536
Joined: March 10, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
TO, I agree with Jon precisely.
quote:

Jason S., Jason H., Cory, John and Barrett are all very credible individuals and have leveled excellent criticism that cannot be simplified to "look at how nutty this guy is."


Their scrutiny of JFBMFR has not only been sophisticated, it has been, in my opinion, careful, considered, and spot-on accurate. The onus is on the complainant to be able to prove he has some kind of case that will hold water (should the complaint turn out to be actual and not just some elaborate vindictive internet troll hoax - sure smells fishy to me).

What happened to "shoot from the hip" and "straight-talkin' Texan," TO? Now you've become some sort of champion of restraint and moderation? (Haha... hahahahahahah ! )

I won't ever forget what you've said to me and names you called me publically and privately. I have no plans to put you through anything of this nature, however.... Who could be bothered? That's a real question by the way...

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 65
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 7:10:17 PM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
You can attempt to badger me into a another fight Diane, but it won't happen.  My feelings about you are already out there and repeating them won't make you, me or anyone else feel any better.

Jon you again completely missed the point of my post.  Factual discussion doesn't have to be free of emotive language.  I've got plenty to go round.  However I fail to see how an emotional argument adds more weight to a position than pure cold fact and reason.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 19, 2008 7:24:22 PM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 66
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 7:32:43 PM   
bonez

 

Posts: 701
Joined: August 29, 2007
Status: offline
Is it possible that the individuals mentioned in the suit where in ths a step further. By that I mean that in trying to follow their threads else where there was a repeating link to the "attack" on the patient with the restraint on the table etc and the reference to the practitioner who did the "pubic bone" stuff. If they all re published this then it could certainly be read by prospective patients and it should scare them away from that kind of treatment.
That in a nutshell could be the harm needed to affect the claim. Unfortunately the MFR people can't refute this but they could pressure others into shutting up. At that point one has to ask where the protecting the public comes in???

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 67
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 7:54:48 PM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
Joined: April 25, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
Rod,

You only had one point in all of that? Perhaps you can restate it. Sorry I missed it.

Also, what is an emotional argument?

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 68
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 8:25:57 PM   
jesspt

 

Posts: 178
Joined: April 4, 2007
From: Illinois
Status: offline
Rod,

I just don't see that the general thrust of most of the posts by these guys can be boiled down to "look how nutty this guy is." As a matter of fact, Jason has been fiarly devoid of emotion when pointing out the similairities between MFR and a cult, as well as when he has debated that MFR is not grounded in any type of sound science. His language was not inflammatory - the facts were, when viewed from Barnes and MFR's perspective. This lawsuit is about the most ludicrius thing I've seen/heard of in my 10 years of practice.

_____________________________

Jess Brown, PT
Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 69
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 8:56:05 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
bonez, I do not think that this would hold any legal water either. After all, the PUBLIC blog postings were actively supported by MFR members and therapists, the quotes from JFB were taken from his own - PUBLIC - log. These were postings from the "man" himself and one of MFR`s "patients".
If the public (including PTs) reads this and decides NOT to pursue MFR - how stupid does this crowd have to be to blame the fab 5?!?  These are blogs SUPPORTING MFR.....If they scare away patients, how can that be in ANY way construed as the fault of the 5 avengers?

It would akin to pharmacists charging someone with giving the title of a library book "The wonderful effects of Novocaine" to others.....

PS: and Rod, the criticisms were MUCH more than "see how nutty this guy is" - the actual gist of all the posts was of incredulity and concern about the depth and amount of nonsense were connected with the theories, practice and actual courses of MFR.

< Message edited by Sebastian Asselbergs -- August 19, 2008 9:06:30 PM >


_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to jesspt)
Post #: 70
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 9:38:18 PM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
Let me please clarify.  I enjoy reading criticisms of MFR and don't think everyone who publishes criticism breaks down into calling Barnes a nut.  I think much of what is said is founded on legitimate grounds.  Make no mistake, I am no defender of Barnes or MFR.  He's the stereotypical clinical authority figure (there are no authorities in science) and advances a methodology that is flawed in both theory and practice.

I applaud much of the well deserved criticism MFR and Barnes are getting.  However, it looks as if someone (namely Barnes) views this as more than criticism and has decided to take action.  All it takes is one person pissed-off enough to hire a lawyer and here we are.  Does the suit have merit?  In my mind of course not.  I have stated on numerous occaisions I side with the defendants on the issues.  I'm just not sure this lawsuit would spontaneously emerge from unemotional criticism of MFR in a peer-reviewed manner.

I still shoot from the hip Diane.  Go ahead...make my day. You don't want my unfiltered posts.  Please understand that my comments (past and present) to you ARE the restrained and moderated versions. 

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 20, 2008 12:17:20 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 71
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 11:26:23 PM   
Valerie McGraw

 

Posts: 3
Joined: August 16, 2008
Status: offline
 
 
Subject: Character Assassination Does Not Equal Freedom of Speech!
 
 
It appears that some people have not understood my posts of Friday, August 15, 2008.
 
We encourage freedom of speech but will not allow character assassination to continue.
 
The individuals mentioned and others that have been guilty of making false accusations have been warned. We hope that this unacceptable action will cease. It is their choice. If they choose to continue these false, unethical and illegal statements, there will be serious financial, legal and professional consequences!
 
Let?s all take a breath, step back and please consider our perspective. Most PT?s and PT?s on these blogs are good people. A few have succumbed to falsehoods spewed in hatred by one individual for over 20 years. When lies are told long enough, some will accept these lies and distortions as truths. A few in the recent past have begun smear campaigns in concert with each other.
 
We possess much more information gleaned from the extensive investigation that has just been completed that we have not yet revealed to the public. One of the individuals quoted Jason Silvernail?s five posts on Evidence in Motion on his website. He then went on to state that MFR created real harm and quotes a lawsuit against a PT accused of sexual misconduct using MFR. This accused therapist has never been directly or indirectly associated with MFR, never attended a MFR Seminar presented by John Barnes and was not using the principles taught by John Barnes. This horrible false information was made available to poison others minds across the world via the internet. This of course is totally unacceptable and has to be stopped. How would you feel if people made malicious and false accusation towards you?
 
Another individual named in the lawsuit posted only a small portion of one our patient?s experiences which was totally out of context. What this individual willfully did not mention was that this patient had been experiencing debilitating pain for decades, could hardly walk, needed a motorized cart to shop and was in the process of purchasing her own wheelchair. After a series of MFR treatments she was over 90% pain-free and was able to walk long distances again and eventually start her own business. These are just two of a very long history of lies and distortions by a few that have unfortunately poisoned many minds for years. 
 
Individuals may wish to continue the debate about the efficacy of this approach that has produced favorable results in the opinion of many thousands of patients and therapists across the globe. With that being said, please do so in a way that avoids making malicious and unfounded statements.
 
Valerie McGraw, P.T.
Chief Physical Therapist
Clinic Manager
Myofascial Release Treatment Center
 
 

(in reply to Valerie McGraw)
Post #: 72
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 11:59:53 PM   
proud

 

Posts: 1834
Joined: March 23, 2006
Status: offline
Valarie,

Sure. This MFR topic is boring me a little.

Now I've got some journals to read...a place where I'm sure not to be bothered much with MFR....

Groan

< Message edited by proud -- August 20, 2008 12:19:26 AM >

(in reply to Valerie McGraw)
Post #: 73
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 12:29:09 AM   
PTupdate.com


Posts: 1562
Joined: October 9, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Status: offline
"We possess much more information gleaned from the extensive investigation that has just been completed that we have not yet revealed to the public"........wow, and they are super sleuths as well! 

With all these thousands of patients and therapists across the globe, I am sure there has to be at least ONE study supporting this miraculous treatment, right?


_____________________________

John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 74
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 3:22:25 AM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
So what you are saying Valerie is that the truth is out there?  A quick ovid search using the keywords "myofascial release OR myofascial release therapy" reveals approximately 118 published papers since 1991.  This search included several editorials and general commentary. 

I think the fact that the entire theory is riddled with flaws coupled with the very sparse clinical evidence supporting it's use should be plenty of reason to keep a ten-foot pole between any PT and this approach.  I regularly take PT students in the clinic.  If they utter the words "myofascial pain" their homework assignment is to give me the theory and evidence to support the use of this term.  After they stop crying, we move on to more productive clinical reasoning.

As usual, rational thought and evidence should be sufficient to keep discerning, educated minds away from all sCAM based treatments.  Attacking the message should take primacy over attacking the messengers.  I don't care that some hippy meta-freak is hovering over his patients wisping away the bogyman.  This can happen with any provider in any field of medicine.  Ask anyone who's ever visited a medical doctor pushing chelation therapy.  Bottom line:  Any jerk can take a theory and twist it to make a trap for fools.  Heck, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some kind of naturopathic goober here in Houston...and this is Houston

I think we take all this passion and emotion we have and direct it in two places: academic PT programs and clinical research.  This allows us to fight the problem on two fronts without drawing the flies.

As an aside I also performed an ovid search on "dermoneuromodulation".  My computer just locked up and started making a cricket sound.  After the reboot, I tried DNM and was encouraged to find about 153 hits!  Unfortunately for Diane it was descending necrotizing mediastinitis.  The upside Diane is that you have 1030 hits on Google.  Maybe it is making us stupid...

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 20, 2008 12:20:35 PM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to PTupdate.com)
Post #: 75
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 3:22:44 AM   
bonez

 

Posts: 701
Joined: August 29, 2007
Status: offline
I agree that the quotes started there(with MFR) but when a non friendly person  links them with the here is how crazy it is line then they (MFR) would like to stop it in it's tracks. The reinterpretation with the bias is the slander/libel.  Possibly?

Apparently Valerie has shed remarkably similar reasoning to what I was suggesting ....To bad I did not readi t before posting.

< Message edited by bonez -- August 20, 2008 3:32:33 AM >

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 76
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 3:33:05 AM   
bonez

 

Posts: 701
Joined: August 29, 2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Valerie McGraw

 
 
Subject: Character Assassination Does Not Equal Freedom of Speech!
 
 
It appears that some people have not understood my posts of Friday, August 15, 2008.
 
We encourage freedom of speech but will not allow character assassination to continue.
 
The individuals mentioned and others that have been guilty of making false accusations have been warned. We hope that this unacceptable action will cease. It is their choice. If they choose to continue these false, unethical and illegal statements, there will be serious financial, legal and professional consequences!
 
Let?s all take a breath, step back and please consider our perspective. Most PT?s and PT?s on these blogs are good people. A few have succumbed to falsehoods spewed in hatred by one individual for over 20 years. When lies are told long enough, some will accept these lies and distortions as truths. A few in the recent past have begun smear campaigns in concert with each other.
 
We possess much more information gleaned from the extensive investigation that has just been completed that we have not yet revealed to the public. One of the individuals quoted Jason Silvernail?s five posts on Evidence in Motion on his website. He then went on to state that MFR created real harm and quotes a lawsuit against a PT accused of sexual misconduct using MFR. This accused therapist has never been directly or indirectly associated with MFR, never attended a MFR Seminar presented by John Barnes and was not using the principles taught by John Barnes. This horrible false information was made available to poison others minds across the world via the internet. This of course is totally unacceptable and has to be stopped. How would you feel if people made malicious and false accusation towards you?
 
Another individual named in the lawsuit posted only a small portion of one our patient?s experiences which was totally out of context. What this individual willfully did not mention was that this patient had been experiencing debilitating pain for decades, could hardly walk, needed a motorized cart to shop and was in the process of purchasing her own wheelchair. After a series of MFR treatments she was over 90% pain-free and was able to walk long distances again and eventually start her own business. These are just two of a very long history of lies and distortions by a few that have unfortunately poisoned many minds for years. 
 
Individuals may wish to continue the debate about the efficacy of this approach that has produced favorable results in the opinion of many thousands of patients and therapists across the globe. With that being said, please do so in a way that avoids making malicious and unfounded statements.
 
Valerie McGraw, P.T.
Chief Physical Therapist
Clinic Manager
Myofascial Release Treatment Center
 
 



Apparently this information is to incomprehensible for the simpltons here to understand, or could it possibly be....yawn  to inconclusive to support this " therapy". Come on give me a break even my quackishness can not see why if you hold the magic crucible that you would not get it to press BEFORE you drop the lawsuit bomb.

< Message edited by bonez -- August 20, 2008 3:37:43 AM >

(in reply to Valerie McGraw)
Post #: 77
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 11:59:30 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
Valerie, how can it be "character assassination"?!? In my opinion , he has already committed "character suicide" long ago, by spouting pseudo-scientific tattle about love, emotions getting stuck in fascia, the "There is no such thing as disease" remark and by allowing and participating in the "therapy" that was inflicted on poor Dottie - and still calling himself a PT....


ANY person can have fantastic recovery from debilitating conditions with even the most outlandish therapies.  That is why anecdotal (or should I say "anecdottiel") evidence is just, well, a story...
There has NEVER been a direct "attack" on the claim that people can get better with the hands-on aspect of MFR. The crap explaining what actually happens during hands-on, and the crap surrounding the hands-on is what is under fire. 
As is the guy who has taken manual techniques into a realm of voo-doo psychobabble with potentially dangerous consequences for clients.

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 78
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 20, 2008 12:32:05 PM   
SJBird55

 

Posts: 3332
Joined: May 11, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
Bas... it is a losing battle here.  Those with strong MFR beliefs can't (or refuse to) openly discuss any claim of criticism.  Even criticizing a DVD created as part of MFR seminars gets one banned from MFR discussion forums.  The MFR folks apparently play dirty and actually publicly post personal comments of seminar attendees (you know from those "comment forms") and twist the picture to make the attendee appear like a complaining idiot. 

I don't believe MFR is a legally protected term... John Barnes doesn't own it.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 79
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