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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENS

 
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 12:55:15 PM   
Shill

 

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From: Madison WI USA
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Wow.  If one takes a peek at the link provided by Sebastian, it is a bit alarming.  Here is a quote from that blog, 

"And I know that she was holding onto the other side of the table adding even more weight on me. I seem to have a lot of ?fight? in me so I assume I was fighting or needing to fight. I struggled and struggled to get her off of me. Of course, she was encouraging me to ?get away.? I was crying and getting angrier and angrier, and finally got her off of me and swung my feet off the table and onto the floor. I turned and shoved her away and then turned back to the table and shoved it hard across the room and onto its side. I desperately wanted to get away. But there wasn?t anywhere to go. The room was small and this one didn?t have a deck attached. I ran to the corner of the room and shoved my face into the corner. When Tina told me that I was safe and had gotten away, I cried ?Then why am I hiding in this f**king corner?? She told me to come out of the corner ? to find my power ? and that I could stop hiding. It was a struggle for me to stop hiding. But then my beautiful tiger came to me and I found the strength to pull my face away from the corner. I turned from the corner and leaned against the wall. After a moment or so, I slid down the wall and sat on the floor. Tina asked me if she could touch me and I told her yes. I think she started slowly, but she soon was hugging me."

There is one thing that I can be sure of.  What transpired above is not physical therapy.  In fact, if someone were to receive this in any clinic, there would likely be an actual need for an attorney, as the practitioner could be charged with misconduct, and potentially false imprisonment.  (false imprisonment: Intentionally restraining another person without having the legal right to do so. It's not necessary that physical force be used; threats or a show of apparent authority are sufficient.)   Informed consent would have to include a statement such as "I am going to sit on you, and not let you up, are you OK with this?  Sign here.  It is perfectly possible that this is included.  However, it is still not physical therapy, in my opinion.

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 41
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 1:20:31 PM   
TexasOrtho


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Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
I agree with proud.  Barnes will reap the whirlwind if he follows through with this suit.  I am thinking a class action suit against him for fraudulent medical claims.  Maybe we could contact the FTC to find out just how favorably they view MFR?  How about CMS and other 3rd party payors?  I agree that this lawsuit could actually signall the beginning of the end for the Barnes crew.  Another possible good coming from a very bad situation.

Nice going Pozz...you are going to end up bankrupting your client.

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Shill)
Post #: 42
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 1:24:20 PM   
TexasOrtho


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Joined: December 22, 2007
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Also...to all you folks daring this yayhoo lawyer to put you on the lawsuit: While I understand your passion, I might suggest rethinking this gesture of solidarity.  Just because you are good and right doesn't you will win.  Remember it is the US legal system we are talking about.

Take that First Amendment...

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 43
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 4:36:13 PM   
proud

 

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Barnes and his followers represent much that is wrong with the otherwise credible profession of Physiotherapy as a whole( in my opinion....based on a great deal of personal reading and scientific reflection). There are many bizzare approaches with very little if any scientific grounds to stand on...not just MFR.  The movement in healthcare is towards evidence based approaches. Dynamic not static theories. Frankly, I would like to see JFB MFR spend the lawsuit cash on some research initiatives. You simply cannot skirt the evidence issue and not expect some backlash from within the profession. Our patients deserve sound science and we should all be pursuing it....

Barnes MFR simply needs to be properly exposed. Eventually, after years of teaching, someone from within the higher ranks of the profession should be asking the tough questions. Barnes should expect it and make strides to defend JFB MFR scientifically. Like I said, patients deserve that. And our professional associations need to dig....really dig deep and ask if the money generated by the adds are worth the drop in professional credibility. The associations claim to uphold the virtues of EBM...yet I continue to question that based on the advertisments I see.....

Ask yourself why patients seem confused by the distiction between high entrance standard university, extensively trained Physiotherapists and your local 6 month, no entrance standards massage center.....Could it be that NO credible profession would allow PT's( not just MFR but others suspect approaches)to practice, bill, make tons of money without a shred of evidence to back up their approaches?

I think so...

Which is why I welcome this era of EBM and scientific pursuit. I think if accountabilty continues to be the name of the game in healthcare, PT's are well positioned to take advantage of that as we are the profession with the most extensive research. We need to be persistent and stifle those that do not wish to be exposed to the rigors of scientific debate and levels of evidence.

I think those implicated in this suit have ample skills at scientific debate and this could potentially backfire on JB MFR and result in professional progress in the end....

< Message edited by proud -- August 17, 2008 6:01:14 PM >

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 44
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 6:28:40 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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Rod, I am so NOT worried about any legal action. First of all, I am in an independent and autonomous country, with absolutely no relation to the US legal system. Second, if I get anything, I would LOVE to try and see them make it stick here.
They only have to check the linked blog, the actual content of some of the threads (no doubt they'll have them downloaded and saved) here, on EIM, and on SomaSimple.

I am thinking that this "I am so hurt" move by Barnes is his dumbest yet: it will attract more attention to the weaknesses of his technique, theory and claims - and their lack of real scientific underpinning.

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 45
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 6:50:41 PM   
Diane

 

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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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quote:

Rod, I am so NOT worried about any legal action. First of all, I am in an independent and autonomous country, with absolutely no relation to the US legal system. Second, if I get anything, I would LOVE to try and see them make it stick here.


I'm with Sebastian. I don't think Barnes is such an overwhelmingly powerful individual that his thirst for vengeance can reach across borders into other countries to force retractions. An international presence is here and ready to rock and roll with facts, commentary, data and rebuttal to whatever he tries to cook up. Gag orders just don't get across the border very well - funny thing that..

< Message edited by Diane -- August 17, 2008 6:56:35 PM >

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 46
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 12:26:49 AM   
PainFree

 

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Unfortunately the merit of Barne's technique is not what is at stake here.  Take a person with enough money and a large enough ego, and he/she can use the legal system to bleed others dry.  As frivolous as this all this sounds, I wouldn't want to be at the receiving end of this potential lawsuit.

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 47
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 12:54:06 AM   
Diane

 

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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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quote:

Take a person with enough money and a large enough ego, and he/she can use the legal system to bleed others dry. As frivolous as this all this sounds, I wouldn't want to be at the receiving end of this potential lawsuit.


All the more reason why sane PTs should all stand up, point at and denounce the nonsense of the whole thing, the bullying, the attempt at intimidation, the spuriousness of many of the statements in the threat letter posted here by pozzuolo.

(in reply to PainFree)
Post #: 48
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 1:38:19 AM   
PTupdate.com


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From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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PainFree:  It's a common practice,similar to something called  a SLAPP lawsuit (NO, not Superior Labrum Anterior to Posterior, but rather Stragegic Litigation Against Public Participation....used in local politics, and elsewhere.

_____________________________

John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 49
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 8:18:17 PM   
joseph pozzuolo

 

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MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREAMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS
VS.BARRETT DORKO, JASON SILVERNAIL, JOHN WARE, JASON HARRIS AND CORY BLICKENSTAFF
 
I understand that the blog posting of Myofascial Release Treatment Centers and Seminars vs. Barrett Dorko, Jason Silvernail, John Ware, Jason Harris and Cory Blickenstaff on August 14, 2008 has created the largest number of hits and comments in the history of this blog.  As there may be a misunderstanding among certain readers, I submit the following comment.            
 
It is agreed that there are some ?good? PT?s and some ?good? lawyers?, however, this world is more complex than simply what you perceive as ?good? or ?bad.?  Society is full of individuals with their own unique perspectives and this great democratic country cherishes its ability to afford its citizens the freedom of speech to state their opinions. However, society has established limitations to one?s freedom of speech when it unjustly injures others or is a malicious attack of character.
 
Our legal system has wrestled with the distinction between the freedom to comment and criticize and speech that interferes and maliciously harms others. In contrast to vast internet postings where blog authors sit behind their computers trying to challenge people to electronic duals thinking they are the internet Billy the Kidd, our legal system does provide a civilized framework to protect individuals and the interests of society from wrecklooses like Billy the Kidd to ensure such individuals do not unjustly and wantonly injure others. Every one of you know people who have used internet blogs to attack an ex-girlfriend with false and malicious comments or where a person attacks a company for some personal vendetta making many debase comments. In the absence of a legal compass, the Billy the Kidds will roam the internet creating baseless attacks on individuals and entities.
 
Our legal system provides protections from these Billy the Kidd type bloggers when comments cause willful, outlandish, and wanton injury to others. As everyone knows, this is why you cannot say ?fire? in a movie theater. In other situations, you cannot make blatant, wanton, malicious comments that attack someone?s character lowering his or her standing in society due to false comments. Society has used the legal remedy of libel and slander to protect the interests of those who have been wronged. MFR is just asserting the same protections as the law provides the ex-girlfriend or the attacked entity to keep Billy the Kidd types from running rancid.
 
Libel and slander differ from the freedom of speech to criticize. Criticism is merely personal opinion that allow for honest feedback. In its most base form, it is comments like, ?I personally don?t agree with?? or ?In my experience with?, I felt like?.? These are personal reactions not directed to maliciously attack any individual of society, but to express your feelings publicly.
 
Libel and slander is when a person attacks the character and public standing of an individual by either using false and malicious assertions of facts to draw fallacious and attacking conclusions, or when a person makes blatant unwarranted assertions about people?s character.
 
For example, if someone attacked your character by falsely asserting that you had molested a female patient, had your PT license revoked, and other such similar offenses, this would be injuring your credibility as a ?good? PT (but if they were true, it would just let others know you were a ?bad? PT). This person should not have the right to make false and outlandish assertions if they are not true.
 
MFR is not discouraging comments and criticism, but actually encourages it. Comments and criticism both help the growth and improvement of MFR techniques and more importantly, the growth of the physical therapy field allowing PT?s to provide better care and relief to their patients. MFR has specifically and purposely not targeted individuals that have provide simple negative comments and criticism because it would be immoral and unjust, and these comments are protected by the first amendment to our constitution.
 
MFR has chosen to target individuals who, many without any MFR experience (as cited above) or without any factual basis, made one or more of the following false, malicious and wanton debase and insulting statements: MFR is engaged in criminal behavior, is a cult, a predator, a marketing scheme, a brainwashing technique, anti-scientific, encouraging and producing sex offenders? and now? bullies.
 
Do not let these Billy the Kidd types that roam around the internet haphazardly, maliciously, and wantonly attacking people?s characters dupe you into thinking MFR is the bully, while in fact, THEY are the ones trying to bully MFR by attempting to start reckless electronic brawls and duals to satisfy THEIR OWN interests, needs, and beliefs rather than the interests of society. In its previous post, MFR is only asking people to not become a Billy the Kidd type that roams around making false, reckless, blatant assertions that attack its character.
 
MFR is not taking away any first amendment rights, but is simply trying to stop these reckless and malicious individuals. MFR encourages all types of comments and feedback about the merits of its system and practices, provided they are not baseless, malicious, false, wanton personal attacks on John Barnes? or MFR?s characters as the Jason Silvernails and the Barrett Dorkos of the world have done. Do not find yourself falling a victim to these Billy the Kidd individuals? as you could be their next target of someone like them.
 
These defamatory comments and character assassinations can not be tolerated whether they are sent within the U.S. or from any foreign country-such as Germany, Canada, Australia, etc.  All are and will be prosecuted with our United States Federal Court system.  However, MFR does encourage a factual scientific debate and discussion. 
 
JOSEPH R. POZZUOLO, ESQUIRE
POZZUOLO RODDEN, P.C.
2033 WALNUT STREET
PHILADELPHIA, PA 19103
TELEPHONE NO. (215) 977-8200
FACSIMILE NO. (215) 977-9663

(in reply to joseph pozzuolo)
Post #: 50
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 9:13:16 PM   
Diane

 

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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hello Joe,
Perhaps you could do the Canadians on this forum the favor of citing a few cases where the United States Federal Court system reached into Canada to sue individual private Canadians on the basis of some alleged mischaracterizations of a prominent public individual, and won. I would very much like to see some actual proof that you are not merely bluffing and trying to intimidate, and possibly so would others. More than one case would be best, perhaps three would suffice. Thank you.

(in reply to joseph pozzuolo)
Post #: 51
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 9:30:03 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
Joe, be careful. Did you just call those critics (the "fab five" in my book) by a derogatory name? "Billy the Kids"?  My, oh my. We have a teensie double standard here, don't we?

quote:


MFR has chosen to target individuals who, many without any MFR experience (as cited above) or without any factual basis, made one or more of the following false, malicious and wanton debase and insulting statements: MFR is engaged in criminal behavior, is a cult, a predator, a marketing scheme, a brainwashing technique, anti-scientific, encouraging and producing sex offenders? and now? bullies.


Calling something a "brainwashing technique", a "marketing scheme", "anti-scientific" are all accurate. Check the link previously provided (the Dottie- blog) and some of John Barnes' own blog posts for some of the brainwashing FACTS. Stated by the great man himself: "do this" "Do that" to his minions - telling them to let go of their emotions and many more "pearls".

Marketing scheme? Sure. Or haven't you seen the John Barnes' remark about taking courses again and again? And his minions proudly proclaiming their repeated attendance and the SAME courses again and again?!? (Mhhh, almost cult-like, isn't it?)

Anti-scientific? THAT is what this whole critique was all about: the deplorable lack of REAL science behind it. A loose and creatively put together gouache of pseudo-science, 3rd grade quantum theory, and poor physiological interpretations is the sole underpinning of the "basis" of MFR.
Yet, in an almost unheard-of fit of stupidity, he can trump that by claiming that the fascia "communicates at 20,000 the speed of light".

Yep, you are representing a quack.


Need I call my lawyer? Mmmh, maybe I should and ask how we go about suing you to retract your vacuous and unsolicited deplorable remarks about PTs of good reputation.... Could be fun.

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to joseph pozzuolo)
Post #: 52
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 18, 2008 9:38:05 PM   
Diane

 

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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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quote:

MFR is not discouraging comments and criticism, but actually encourages it.


Joe, since you seem to be in an open and chatty mood, I would like clarification on how a treatment approach (i.e., MFR) can "discourage" or "encourage" anything. I'm confused. I thought a treatment approach was a thing, not a person. Maybe you are using "MFR" in some other way?

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 53
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 12:38:53 AM   
proud

 

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Joe,

I'm going to do you a favour( in my opinion).

You seem blissfully unaware of how off the mark you are, I going to attempt to steer you in the correct direction( in my opinion). I think you need to do a little "lawyer" investigation( in my opinion).

Before rambling on and on( in my opinion)....please investigate the scientific underpinnings, treatment claims, seminars etc offered by JFB MFR....Perhaps speak with some authorities on pain, neurology etc. Many here could supply you with names if you wish.

Could save your firm some embarresment down the line. If things proceed, I am certain your client will be exposed in a negative fashion and your firm will have to answer many questions about why you did not do some homework.....(in my opinion).

Also Sebastian, I agree with you....perhaps we should look into speaking with a lawyer about Joe's remarks about highly educated, well intentioned defenders of professional credibility and scientific accountability in this era of EBM. I think much of this so called lawsuit is so off the mark it could be argued that it unecessarily burdened those implicated? I think the term is frivolous litigation? Hmmmmm?

Do yourself a favour Joe.....take my advice above.

< Message edited by proud -- August 19, 2008 12:58:26 AM >

(in reply to Diane)
Post #: 54
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 1:58:03 AM   
TexasOrtho


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Not defending Joe by any means here gang, but he could give a rat's ass if MFR is effective or that Barnes is off his nut.  That's not the issue he is litigating.  The question is whether the defendants are guilty of libel and/or slander against Barnes.  There is no point in arguing the merits of MFR or Barne's character as they have little inertia in the debate from a legal standpoint.  The core question is: Were they guilty of libel or slander?
 
Sorry to get all wiki on ya'll but here we go.  If you look up libel and slander on wiki you'll find some interesting bits of information regarding its history, uses, and defense against such accusations.

Here is the link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel

Joe there has to be a better use of your time.  Based on this Lawyer 101 analysis, this doesn't seem like a winnable case.  Also, won't you have to litigate each individual as opposed to the group - making it winnable cases?  I think you will discover this suit to be a waste of your time and Barnes' money.

That being said I would like to see future discussions of MFR and other fringe therapies discussed in a more civil manner.  Not that it matters what I want...it just seems as though it would be a more productive way to give credit or discredit certain approaches without drawing the...um flies.

...if you get my meaning.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 19, 2008 3:34:22 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 55
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 2:19:14 AM   
proud

 

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Joined: March 23, 2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasOrtho

Not defending Joe by any means here gang, but he could give a rat's ass if MFR is effective or that Barnes is off his nut.  That's not the issue he is litigating.  The question is whether the defendants are guilty of libel and/or slander against Barnes.  There is no point in arguing the merits of MFR or Barne's character as they have little inertia in the debate from a legal standpoint.  The core question is: Were they guilty of libel or slander?
 
Sorry to get all wiki on ya'll but here we go.  If you look up libel and slander on wiki you'll find some interesting bits of information regarding its history, uses, and defense against such accusations.

Here is the link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel








I laughed at this posting Rod. Just well worded and funny to read.

Anyway, that is a good point and one I might explore. If someone is "off their nut" as you say. And has a website( let's say it's an orthopeadic surgeon with a new, unsubstaniated, unscientific surgery technique). Let's say that Orthopeadic surgeon posts all kinds of anecdotal claims and essentially proves to all informed that he is in fact "off his nut".

Is it libal/slander to say so....in public....if the "off his nut" factor is in fact proven true in a court of law?

I don't know...I'm asking.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 56
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 2:27:21 AM   
TexasOrtho


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Proud you and I seem to be on the same page with this...That wiki article does cite "Truth" as a defense against defamation suits.  I think this would be one of the stronger defensive tactics for the defendants in this case.  There are numerous other legal hurdles Joe would have to clear to make this stick as well.  The sad thing would be that if this did push forward, it would be a complete waste of taxpayers' money.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 19, 2008 3:35:30 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 57
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 4:11:05 AM   
bonez

 

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Being the other "quack" in the group 've tried to stay off this topic but there is another thing to be aware of .....   For our lawyer friend he is making his living doing what he does. Barnes want to use legal matters then he has got a lawyer. He will work the suit on the way up and on the way down. Win or lose he wins.
I say sit back and let the chips fall where they may.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 58
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 4:31:53 AM   
ginger

 

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it is possible the only predator here, is Joe.

(in reply to bonez)
Post #: 59
RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 19, 2008 11:52:41 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
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From: Barrie, Canada
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quote:

That being said I would like to see future discussions of MFR and other fringe therapies discussed in a more civil manner.


Rod, coming from you, this is rather funny!
Where is the "uncivil" manner in the criticisms and comparisons in the MFR threads?? Any comparison using the contentious words were all made to show the similarities between JFB and predator-behaviour, between the MFR practitioners and a cult, between the MFR group behaviour on their blog (towards visitors) with bullies, between the JFB admonition to "keep taking courses" and marketing ploys; of course the claim that was made that MFR is unscientific is about as civil as one can get. I could have called it "the most unbelievable, put-together-pap of watered-down science and pseudo-science crap EVER", but I didn't.... Is it criminal? If you read Dottie's blog and her experiences with her "therapists" - I'd say anyone would agree.
Nothing uncivil in the use of any of those terms.
More civil people than we have used much more pointed terms and insults in their heated debates (check out Churchill's words in his debates with his opponents in British government).

Or do you have better ways of criticising the drivel called "MFR"?

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to ginger)
Post #: 60
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