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RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid?

 
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RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:44:22 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

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From: Barrie, Canada
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quote:

it makes me wonder why we must have multiple forums


Well, mainly because there are people with different styles, different ways of compiling materials, different communication types and skills, and simply different tastes. Much like Pepsi and Coke and Sprite and Tonic and Mountain Dew. All pop, all bubbly, all full of crap, all to satisfy the needs of the shareholders, yet all different. It is called "the option of choice". :-)

All aside, I do believe that all these forums serve a purpose - they are each rather unique and thus allow some to dwell more "here" than "there".

SJ, it is simply not true that egos have to be stroked - I have to disagree. Like I have at times with those at SS. And still am posting there. I simply thank those who contribute rather selflessly and frequently, comment where I want and can, and that is it.

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 41
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 1:31:38 AM   
SJBird55

 

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From: Michigan
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Whatever, Bas.  I'm not a fan of the social structure at SS.  Yes, egos are stroked.  Oh... the sacrificial role of some of those moderators... how can I NOT consistently respect that?   LOL 

Bas, you coat your words in such a way that you walk the fence and don't take sides.  You are no threat to those at SS because you don't rock the boat with your thoughts.  They like you because they don't view you as a threat.  For whatever reason, I'm viewed as a threat - so was Rod... so will be proud, unless he changes his preferred communication style.  

I'm not a fan of Dorko's writings.  I only read them for entertainment AND to see just how far off base he is with each essay.  Dorko's writings if mailed or emailed to me would be trashed very quickly.  They definitely aren't fine pieces of work in my opinion.  To each their own.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 42
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 2:15:13 AM   
TexasOrtho


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It may just be something (else) wierd about me, but I like reading things that are challenging and possibly inflammatory to my belief systems.  Stepping a bit off into a deeper end of the pool, I never felt more strongly about my faith in God until I read many many dissenting views on the issue.  That happens to be a constant source of conflict and renewal in my life, and I always emerge from it a bit sharper and wiser.  To quote Tyler Durden "How are you going to know anything about yourself if you've never been in a fight?".  I think avoiding conflict and the resultant pain of introspection is not a healthy way to grow.  I see this fear-avoidance in the development of different forums catering to different mindsets.  Like I said, it's not all BAD, just different.

As an aside:  I find Dorko's writings a bit self-indulgent and pedantic, but they are interesting in that they offer a perspective I find useful.  Namely: not my own.  I applaud the effort for putting himself out there.  The same goes for the lady Di in putting out her DNM manual (although it really needs a good editor). That kind of effort must be like giving birth.  Writing is something I have deep respect for because it isn't as easy as some good authors make it look.  I have some experience with writing myself.  I used to write for (don't laugh) Muscle and Fitness Magazine back in the late 90's. I know, I know..nice peer review Rod.



_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 43
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 2:49:58 AM   
proud

 

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Ego stroking is something I don't do well( I have a strong gag reflex). I did have a positive experience using one of Diane's techniques on a recalcitrant elbow case. I did mention that to Diane. I think it's the right thing to do. What can I say....I know patients and this fellow did a 180 degree turnaround in 2 sessions. Fluke? Maybe but something about that result tells me not so much a fluke???

Sugar coating. Well I never will be a cream puff when it comes to asking a question or providing an opinion.I have strong opinions and state them in unedited format.  I've changed my opinion quite few times over the years based on keeping my mind wide open. I prefer to call it moderating my style over there. For whatever reason, a few don't like the boat being rocked. Frankly I don't think approaching dissenting opinion the way some do over at SS fosters great growth of the mind at all. Keeping everyone on the same "slant" tends to create a collective( rather like the Borg from Star Trek...). I think "collectives" tend to squash progress.

I had hoped I could ask pointy edged questions and be met with a professional demeanor from the regulars. I did ask about outcomes and for the most part, I recieved some insight that I hoped for( I recall Jon's response regarding some outcomes that cannot be measured). Oddly however, the question resulted in some very bizzare antics as well.

I get it. There is no outcome data to support those at SS that have developed a treatment approach based on pain science. Most do not make excuses for it....acknowledge it even. It was suggested that eventually the data will come and to be patient. I can appreciate that. But to be performing a treatment for years.....teach it to others....have no intention of collecting data....and then get angry when someone comes knocking at the door looking for some data....well.....that's akin to guruism.

But the outcomes data thingy is a dead horse over at SS...I don't expect that to change and I don't plan on bringing it up again.

< Message edited by proud -- July 29, 2008 3:30:19 AM >

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 44
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 2:53:46 AM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
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From: Amherst, WI
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Rod,

There is a difference between contentious and cantankerous.  The former is more like a moderated presidential debate and the latter like attack ads.  (I'm quite capable of both as evidenced by my history of posting.)  I'm advocating that the former be the goal at SomaSimple but at the same time not advocating that the latter be abolished everywhere.  And I think that what I'm advocating for is more helpful when it comes to people making rational decisions (or better rationalizations.) If there is something selfish about that then I'm guilty as charged.  If you have evidence or a good argument that I'm wrong and that personal attacks enhance knowledge of a topic then please present it. 

As I stated previously, moderating has been and continues to be learning experience for me.  It's not like there's a degree or certification course in online moderation. 

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 45
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 3:29:08 AM   
TexasOrtho


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Joined: December 22, 2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: proud
But to be performing a treatment for years.....teach it to others....have no intention of collecting data....and then get angry when someone comes knocking at the door looking for some data....well.....that's akin to guruism.


For the love of all that's holy, don't bring up cults,guruism, or the borg over there.  They are keenly senstive to that and will unleash the hounds.  I compared Dorko to a shepherd tending the flock, and he all but challenged me to meet him after class. 

quote:


But the outcomes data thingy is a dead horse over at SS...I don't expect that to change and I don't plan on bringing it up again.


I think the mod's on that forum (present company excluded Jon) would file that under "mission accomplished".  One day they may decide to bring it up and discuss it freely amongst themselves.  You may then feel free to chime in with thoughts of their (sorry - your) own.  To save you a few head hairs, please feel free to check out these threads back in February on the SS.  Click here....or here....or here...
  

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to proud)
Post #: 46
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 3:42:20 AM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
Joined: April 25, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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quote:

quote:


But the outcomes data thingy is a dead horse over at SS...I don't expect that to change and I don't plan on bringing it up again.


I think the mod's on that forum (present company excluded Jon) would file that under "mission accomplished".


This is the type thing that got you banned Rod.  I'm sure you'll ammend your list as Jason, Luke, etc., etc., have to chime in to defend themselves.  Which of course is VERY productive and unselfish.  Nice job.  Way to bring everyone together and avoid stalling professional development.

Too preachy?

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 47
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 3:56:22 AM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Newman
Which of course is VERY productive and unselfish.  Nice job.  Way to bring everyone together and avoid stalling professional development.

Too preachy?


Nope...just wrong.  I never claimed to be the beacon of productivity or unselfishness.  Nor did I single out Luke or Jason other than to postively reference Jason's article in the first post of this thread.  You also carefully disregarded my acknowledgement of the hard work Dorko and Di put into their efforts.  Equally productive and unselfish Jon...

Your overreaction to my statement is telling Jon.  If the shoe fits ...you've got options.  Incidentally, THAT kind of talk got me banned? Equally telling...

In the end, it really is no big deal.  I'm trying to see it like Bas and SJ mentioned earlier in this thread.  Different strokes for different folks.  I guess I find myself on RE most often because folks tend to be a bit more laid back.  That and I haven't been banned...

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- July 29, 2008 4:25:45 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 48
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 4:22:12 AM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
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From: Amherst, WI
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Rod,

Earlier you contended that I was selfish for wanting a board that had a low tolerance for personal attacks.  Then you state the moderators at SomaSimple have some sort of disdain for outcomes data.  Moderators, if you didn't know, include Luke, Cory, Jason, Bas, Barrett, Diane, Chris, Eric, Nick, Bernard, Cedric, Emad, Nari, olivierossorie. (I'm pretty sure I've got that right.)  Since you clarified that I wasn't to be included in your comment then I have to assume you meant to include everyone else or you would have taken care to cite other exceptions to your claim.  But now we get to go through a clarification process.  And to what end?  I suppose now people know who the moderators are at Soma, so that's good.

On the productive part:  In your original post you commented

quote:

This unified approach to clinical decision making will prevent further fragmentation of our profession and get us rowing in the same direction.


What I'm asking is whether you think you are actually rowing in the same direction when your posts seem to be focused on characterizing websites and the people who post at them?

p.s.  Have I mentioned that I've done all those things?

< Message edited by Jon Newman -- July 29, 2008 4:34:14 AM >

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 49
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 4:41:01 AM   
TexasOrtho


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Jon perhaps I should have been more inclusive in referencing Di, Dorko, and Bernard specifically.  I'm not sure if the statistics have changed but these three individuals alone accounted for approximately 1/3 of the 45,000 posts several months ago. I'm not sure you see that kind of ideological weight thrown around many other so called science-based forums. 

Your implicating Luke, Jason, and others is inviting conflict where there is none from my perspective.  You are either doing this because I misspoke or you are proving me right by attempting to circle the wagons.  I'd like to think it's the former.

I need to redirect here Jon.  If you'll mine this thread wayyy back,you'll discover I truly enjoy the material that get's kicked around on that and other forums.  The main premise of this thread was that it's a shame when the ideology of a forum interferes with an escalation of thought and turns it into a revolving door.  Unfortunately, the forum you moderate exemplifies this in the form of ostracizing (in one form or another) those who disagree, IMO.  Again, it's a free internet and I don't blame you or them for moderating as you see fit...I have no desire to unite the tribes or convince others to do so.  It was just an observation based on a discussion with a chiropractor.

I feel it is important to move back the origninal point in this thread to constantly and unashamedly question both the theory and evidence behind what we do.  An environment where this is encouraged provides the most opportunity for growth. 

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- July 29, 2008 4:46:52 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 50
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 4:47:55 AM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Newman

Rod,

Earlier you contended that I was selfish for wanting a board that had a low tolerance for personal attacks. 


Wow Jon.  You truly have a vivid imagination.  Here's what I actually said:

"This is a bit selfish Jon, unless I miss your point.  Some really great information and action arises out of the most contentious discussions.  The fact it doesn't occur with the tenor or expediency you would prefer doesn't resonate with me.  Often these discussions develop into thought exercises for those participating in the debate." 

If the whole PT thing doesn't work out, I hear James Carville is accepting applications.   As this misrepresentation formed the premise of your recent post, you'll forgive me if I don't take it too seriously.

< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- July 29, 2008 4:53:57 AM >


_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 51
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 4:49:39 AM   
BB

 

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Proud,

Thanks for answering my question.

quote:

You could have all the facts before you about how to build a bridge....but until you do.....you've done nothing.


It is clear in PT that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, or record its MCID, it never fell.  I get that.  I think we need to expand on your example though.  Let's say we have all the knowledge available on building a bridge.  We've even studied which designs are likely to be strongest and which materials are best to build with.  We've even gone the step of building a few to prove that we knew how and that several of us could build it as well as each other and in a similar way.  Your above statement has been fulfilled at this point.  But bridges can be used to cross lots of things, rivers, roads, other bridges.  Heck, there's no reason you couldn't use a bridge to just cross above a flat pasture if you wanted.  If you were to base your use of bridges on "successful outcomes," and your outcomes were based on what you presumed bridges were for: crossing to the other side, each instance would be a success.  However, is the bridge necessary in each circumstance?  Would your bridge building be affected by knowledge of what it might be used for?  Of course.  That doesn't take away from the quality and usefulness of the bridge building studies, but bridge building studies can only tell you so much.  They depend upon the question that is being asked.  In our profession, the river is not so obvious.  While we are already good at studying how to build bridges and even show that we know how (we do have some of the best architects around for sure), we don't guide our how studies with our why knowledge very well yet.  We need to get better at asking why bridges are necessary.

Also, lack of outcomes studies does not equal outside of EBM.  Ignoring evidence that does exist, be it physiologic, mechanistic, outcome, equals outside of EBM. 

Rod,

Dissent has never gotten anyone in trouble at SS.  It just so happens that those that are insulting and/or inappropriate are also often dissenting.  It isn't the dissent that is the problem.

Cory

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 52
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 4:52:31 AM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
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From: Amherst, WI
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When you make generalizations, especially disparaging ones, then conversation will naturally turn defensive and deviates from the topic at hand.  When you state "the moderators" I have to think you mean the moderators.  I know for a fact that you were incorrect in your statement (as it was written but apparently not intended) and sought to either defend that group or produce a clarification.

Your desire to return to the original topic is a desire I think is best promoted by refraining from personal attacks and characterizing groups of people.  That's the main point I've been trying to make.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 53
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 5:03:37 AM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
Joined: April 25, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
quote:

You truly have a vivid imagination.


Thank you.  I used to think that I did not but in fact I have a very enriched fantasy life. 

You may learn, at some point, that when you have a point to make it helps not to first say something sort of insulting to the person you're making the point to. 

It's the neuroeconomy, stupid.

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 54
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 5:19:00 AM   
TexasOrtho


Posts: 1090
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
quote:



Your desire to return to the original topic is a desire I think is best promoted by refraining from personal attacks and characterizing groups of people.  That's the main point I've been trying to make.


I initially typed a longer reply, but decided it wouldn't get us anywhere Jon.  Let's just go to our neutral corners on this  as neither you nor I are carrying this discussion forward with this tangent.  If you like we can take care of this via PM.  I promise not to tell you to kiss my ass.

_____________________________

Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Movement Science Podcast and Blog

(in reply to Jon Newman)
Post #: 55
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:01:44 PM   
SJBird55

 

Posts: 3332
Joined: May 11, 2004
From: Michigan
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I find it strange that the folks at SS who tend to like the control factor over at SS actually enjoy breaking out and talking over here about a topic over at SS.  Rod is banned, but SS folks do want to discuss and talk with him.  Strange... The ridiculous aspect of it is that if those that control SS just allowed for open discussion, they wouldn't have to break away from SS.  (Me being banned for communicating MedScape rules is pretty ridiculous.  I wasn't rude/dissenting or disrespectful.  Moderators exercised their control and made their own excuses for their actions. Excuses that make them feel better and at the same time attempt to create a poor image of me.  Whatever.  They ban sometimes for the simple reason that they don't like you OR you threaten them, but they don't have the courage to just say, "hey, we don't like you - you're outta here.")

Cory, if you have happened to have read Topical Issues in Pain 1-5, it makes no sense to me how "skin stretching" or "simple contact" can be successful interventions in and of themselves.  The "bridge" created for that scenario doesn't make sense.  More and more clinical research is targeting the brain versus the peripheral components of pain.  Moseley has completely changed treatment for soldiers returning from Iraq with amputations by his work with the mirror box.  I believe the Army has a large study occurring on mirror therapy for the soldiers.  Moseley has published work on education and chronic pain.  I use his work all the time with patients.  Just last week, I had a guy with chronic low back pain and radiculopathy attend physical therapy - the physiatrist checked the box "fair" potential.  I'm thinking... ugggh....  Off work for over a month, severe pain, radiating pain, inability to maintain any position of any length of time, allodynia - yep, had failure all over it.  But.. I took a deep breath and put Moseley's work into action.  NOT all of it, I just do what I think is needed by the patient AND I spoke about some research on the low back, incorporated a version of the slump test, incorporated some lumbar stretching into rotation and a bit of directional preference... 3 30 minute visits - the guy is ready for work.  3 visits  -no radiating pain, no allodynia, no low back pain.  No simple contact - I don't believe THAT has been studied well enough... no yapping about some specific nerve that is cranky and needs to be moved requiring 1 hour long quiet treatments.... Moseley's work though - Moseley's work will come through for me. 

No one has specifically ever stated that outcomes alone determines evidence.  The question has actually been more like - so, you do skin stretching... you got a theory, how do you know it works?  We are left with nothing measured - only observation/testimonial of Diane that it works.  The paper published on Simple contact was erroneous in the abstract and the paper could have addressed a very interesting component - education.  The findings with that Simple Contact case supported Moseley's work on education.  Simple contact may not have even been required for the results obtained - could have all been due to education.

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 56
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:02:43 PM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
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From: Barrie, Canada
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OK, my last post on this thread (since it has started to unravel...).

quote:

Bas, you coat your words in such a way that you walk the fence and don't take sides.  You are no threat to those at SS because you don't rock the boat with your thoughts. 


"Take sides"?!? "No threat"?!?  SJ, I am first and foremost on these boards to learn, discuss and assimilate as much as I can. From your post, it seems there is a contest or war going on somewhere that I need to partake in. I refuse to do that. I may have strong opinions about this or that, or this or that person, but that will not get in my way to keep trying to absord more stuff. I guess I feel they can be separated.
But that is my opinion only.

PS: Do you remember why Diane got banned from the Edge? Or Barrett?

< Message edited by Sebastian Asselbergs -- July 29, 2008 12:08:59 PM >


_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to TexasOrtho)
Post #: 57
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:20:39 PM   
Jon Newman

 

Posts: 1733
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From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
quote:

Let's just go to our neutral corners on this  as neither you nor I are carrying this discussion forward with this tangent.


I love the boxing metaphor and I think it's a great idea.  Not only will I go to my corner but I'll get out of the ring.  Sorry for the distraction everyone.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 58
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:21:46 PM   
SJBird55

 

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From: Michigan
Status: offline
LOL Bas... you stated exactly what I'm saying.  If in fact you really, really agreed with Rod, you wouldn't jump in and state that Rod has a very valid point.  If you really, really agreed with me, you wouldn't jump in and state I had a very valid point.  Since you don't go down that path -you don't rock the boat with SS moderators.  For all they know, generally you are always in agreement with them because you don't choose to do any actions that would indicate anything different.  You keep your strong opinions to yourself.  Having a goal of trying to absorb more stuff as THE priority keeps you from becoming fully involved with all the crap and the consequences of truly speaking one's mind.  I'm not saying you don't speak your mind, but when you do, you do it in a diplomatic manner that is not threatening and will allow for you to stay in good graces with moderators - your goal is to absorb.

I'm more of an active learner and I enjoy discussing and I actually enjoy disagreeing.  I learn more when I disagree than when I agree.  I just so happens that the biggest group of therapists in which I disagree can be found at SS.  I have learned more and have shaped my ways of practice based on the disagreements that have occurred over the years.  I don't agree with them, but in my search and in my reading, I have found some good stuff that is clinically relevant that has assisted me in doing my role better.  I have that group of therapists that I disagree with the most to thank.  No, I don't practice as they specifically advocate, but via the disagreements, I have found a better way to treat patients.  That is also because the disagreeing isn't just to disagree, but because I truly do not agree with everything they state or with their whole theory.  My goal is to continue to improve the services I provide to patients by being more effective and more efficient.  If the moderators at SS don't like that or don't like how I communicate, so be it - the world isn't lost to me.  I can still learn and I can still reach my goals - it just doesn't happen at the same rate because there isn't that same kind of drive to read and support my thoughts.

(in reply to Sebastian Asselbergs)
Post #: 59
RE: Does reading my posts make you stupid? - July 29, 2008 12:26:33 PM   
SJBird55

 

Posts: 3332
Joined: May 11, 2004
From: Michigan
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To my knowledge, Dorko never got banned.  He chose to leave RE because he disagreed with having a "members only" room where he controlled who was allowed to partake in discussion.  If I recall, he didn't want his discussions locked up for members only.  He left and went to SS... where, funny thing, members are controlled and moderators control who is allowed to discuss.  LOL

To my knowledge, Diane couldn't have been banned - she posted in this discussion.

If she was banned, I don't recall why - but I do know that for a bit of time, she was very mean spirited toward any chiropractor on this site.  She could have been banned for that.

(in reply to SJBird55)
Post #: 60
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