RehabEdge Physical Therapy Forum

Forums  Register  Login  Forgot Login?
  My Profile 
My Subscription
  My Forums 
Search
  FAQ  Log Out
Follow @RehabEdge

Chronic ankle pain

 
Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Radiology Case Studies >> Chronic ankle pain Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 4:58:00 AM   
Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 1, 2004
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
What is most likely going on here? What views are these and what do these radiographs tell us?





< Message edited by Randy J Moore -- July 22, 2007 11:33:37 PM >


_____________________________

Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
Post #: 1
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 5:53:00 AM   
KAK

 

Posts: 206
Joined: December 2, 2004
Status: offline
I'm not sure what the view would be called. It looks like a test for lateral stability of the ankle. A talar tilt test on film.

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 2
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 6:37:00 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
Never seen one of these - looks like left and right a/p views for lateral stress; seems to show a lateral failure of ankle mortise. Those lead gloves must be murder to cook with....

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 3
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 7:50:00 AM   
USAPT

 

Posts: 284
Status: offline
I agree with Sebastian. I'm not sure the name of the view but it is an A/P w/ lateral stress for joint/soft tissue integrity????

_____________________________

Jason, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Specialist

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 4
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 8:24:00 AM   
JLS_PT_OCS

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: January 31, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
These are stress views of the ankle.
The gloves are on to protect the hands from the rads, and to keep the overlay of the skeletal structure from interfering in the interpretation of the film.
The point is to see the degree of instability in the ankle joint.
For patients who we are unsure are unstable, or for whom the surgeon is considering for a reconstruction procedure but stability tests aren't clear, these are good views.
I do not believe they are commonly done much anymore.

I don't happen to know the standards of what degree of tilt constitutes instability.
J

_____________________________

Jason Silvernail DPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.silvernailstudios.com
jasonsilvernail@gmail.com

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 5
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 3:25:00 PM   
USAPT

 

Posts: 284
Status: offline
thanks J

_____________________________

Jason, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Specialist

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 6
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 5:04:00 PM   
dragonfire

 

Posts: 61
Joined: January 19, 2005
From: usa
Status: offline
it looks like they're both oblique views with more ankle joint space of the R than the L. i think B ankles are in PF/everted position. is the R ankle showing ligamental laxity of lateral ligaments? just guessing without reading the posts after the x-rays.

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 7
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 5:50:00 PM   
dragonfire

 

Posts: 61
Joined: January 19, 2005
From: usa
Status: offline
meant inversion R ankle, not eversion

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 8
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 24, 2005 7:33:00 PM   
Synergy

 

Posts: 619
Joined: March 12, 2004
From: Texas
Status: offline
This is really cool...the talar test (inversion stress test) captured on an x-ray with either the Michelin Man or Stay-Puff Marshmellow man performing the test. I would suppose these radiographs are showing us lateral instability of the right ankle compared to the left.

Jason,

I believe Brotzman and Wilk state that greater than 10 degrees difference compared to the contralateral side constitutes instability.

_____________________________

Chris Adams, PT, MPT

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 9
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 28, 2005 1:42:00 AM   
Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 1, 2004
From: Kentucky
Status: offline



This is a talar tilt stress view radiograph comparing the symptomatic side (right) to the asymptomatic side (left) on this 24 year old female soldier.

The true stress radiologic criteria for diagnosing mechanical lateral ankle instability are controversial. Normal talar tilt values have been reported to range from 0 to 23 (1,2). Because of the wide variance of normal values, some authors feel that this test is not a reliable indicator of ankle instability (2). Others argue that anteroposterior and lateral stress views do not take into account the rotational instability that is occurring at the ankle and subtalar joint (3). This may explain the complaints of subjective ankle instability in the face of normal radiographic stress tests ("functional instability"). One study (4) demonstrated that a 10 difference in talar tilt between the injured and uninjured ankle was diagnostic of a sprain of both lateral ankle ligaments in 97% of cases. Most authors agree that a difference of 5 to 15 between the injured and uninjured side is diagnostic of mechanical ankle instability (5).

1. Rubin G, Witten M: The talar tilt angle and the fibular collateral ligaments: a method for the determination of talar tilt. J Bone Joint Surg 1960;42A:311-326
2. Seligson D, Gassman J, Pope M: Ankle instability: evaluation of the lateral ankle ligaments. Am J Sports Med 1980;8(1):39-42
3. Hintermann B: Biomechanics of the unstable ankle joint and clinical implications. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999;31(7 Suppl):S459-S469
4. Chrisman OD, Snook GA: Reconstruction of lateral ligament tears of the ankle: an experimental study and clinical evaluation of seven patients treated by a new modification of the Elmslie procedure. J Bone Joint Surg Am 1969;51(5):904-912
5. Safran MR, Benedetti RS, Bartolozzi AR 3rd, et al: Lateral ankle sprains: a comprehensive review. Part 1: etilology, pathoanatomy, histopathogenesis, and diagnosis. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999;31(7 Suppl):S429-S437

This particular patient had a difference of 17 degrees left to right. The measured angle is formed by drawing a straight line across the tibial plafond and a line across the dome of the talus. From my conversations with an orthopaedic surgeon the gold standard for ankle instability is arthroscopy. I personally feel in order to fully diagnose true ankle instability versus something like ligament laxity or someone with just poor proprioception there needs to be the ?total package?. Meaning that the patient should have several findings including; 1) patient history consistent with ankle instabililty, i.e. trauma or mechanism of injury and history of chronic ankle sprains 2) physical exam consistent with ankle instability. Positive talar tilt and anterior drawers when compared to healthy side 3) Ankle stress views showing the differences compared to healthy side as shown in studies listed above.

On a side note, from what I read the patient should undergo some sort of local anesthetic in the ankle before performing the talar tilt stress view so that you will not get any muscle guarding during the x-ray procedure. I have never seen this done.

Follow on question. What surgeries are performed to correct ankle instability?

< Message edited by Randy J Moore -- July 22, 2007 11:34:40 PM >


_____________________________

Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 10
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 28, 2005 7:05:00 AM   
KAK

 

Posts: 206
Joined: December 2, 2004
Status: offline
For lateral instability:

Brostrom- which I believe is a direct repair of the torn ligaments.

Modified Brostrom-using a portion of the extensor retinaculum to reinforce the repair

Reconstructive tenodesis using the peronueus brevis tendon

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 11
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 28, 2005 7:30:00 AM   
Sebastian Asselbergs

 

Posts: 2293
Joined: September 30, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
The local surgeons tend to do conservative treatments - Aircast, splinting etc etc. I haven't checked my Medline, but these fellows say that results of conservative care are equal or better than surgery in the long run.

Cool though. Thanks Alex!

_____________________________

Mundi vult decipi

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 12
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 30, 2005 8:51:00 AM   
certMDT

 

Posts: 156
Joined: April 6, 2004
From: Durham, NC
Status: offline
Sebastian -

I remember reading studies describing equal or better outcome for conservative care even in Grade 3, full-tear sprains, but that was for acute injury. Does this hold up with chronic instability?

Charlie

_____________________________

Charles Sheets PT OCS Dip MDT

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 13
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 30, 2005 10:15:00 AM   
jma

 

Posts: 2639
Joined: August 25, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
I have not read about the specific surgeries mentioned for ankle instability, other than the conservative casting or bracing methods. Would be interesting to know what they specifically do if the conservative approaches do not work.

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 14
Re: Chronic ankle pain - June 30, 2005 11:16:00 AM   
JLS_PT_OCS

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: January 31, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
Though the primary repairs initially had little success, they are gaining in popularity.

I worked with a nationally known podiatrist at my last station, and he was doing almost all DPRs (delayed primary repairs) of the ligaments. I think most places the modified Brostrum is the most common procedure.
J

_____________________________

Jason Silvernail DPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.silvernailstudios.com
jasonsilvernail@gmail.com

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 15
Re: Chronic ankle pain - July 1, 2005 2:03:00 AM   
Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS

 

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 1, 2004
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
I used to not be a big fan of the Brostrum but I have had two in a row with outstanding outcomes.

_____________________________

Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 16
Re: Chronic ankle pain - July 1, 2005 6:51:00 AM   
JLS_PT_OCS

 

Posts: 1684
Joined: January 31, 2005
From: USA
Status: offline
Is everyone still seeing the modified Brostrum being casted for 4-6 wks postop?

It's been my experience that immediate mobs have to be done for that motion, then things go much better.
Other thoughts?
J

_____________________________

Jason Silvernail DPT
Board-Certified in Orthopedic Physical Therapy
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.silvernailstudios.com
jasonsilvernail@gmail.com

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 17
Re: Chronic ankle pain - July 1, 2005 9:56:00 AM   
Shill

 

Posts: 1377
Joined: February 14, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
When does the CBT start for this patient? There is chronic pain, no?

_____________________________

Steve Hill PT

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 18
Re: Chronic ankle pain - July 1, 2005 10:27:00 AM   
SJBird55

 

Posts: 3332
Joined: May 11, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
See, that's where I would think that there needs to be balance in our clinical decision making processes. Given that this person has a substantial amount of laxity creating instability, then my interpretation would be that if the laxity was addressed then the pain would have a greater chance of being reduced. I wouldn't worry about the chronic pain issue until after the laxity was addressed and then see how the patient presents. At the same time, I do believe that time spent educating the patient on post-op anticipated expectations both overall outcomes and intial pain on the front end before the surgery could be helpful in preparing the patient to potentially have a more successful outcome with realistic post-op expectations.

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 19
Re: Chronic ankle pain - July 1, 2005 12:02:00 PM   
Shill

 

Posts: 1377
Joined: February 14, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
Im with ya SJ, I was kind of being a smart a....
Part of the reason for this is the fact that in this case there is objective evidence for chronic pain, whereas in other cases, the objectivity is not there. Maybe, in those other cases, it is, and we just havent found it yet. Maybe it isnt, and the central pheomenon overrule. I marvel in how much we dont know yet. Im also pathologically black and white in my thought processes. How do I change that?
Steve

_____________________________

Steve Hill PT

(in reply to Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS)
Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Radiology Case Studies >> Chronic ankle pain Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts



Google Custom Search
Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5.5 Unicode

0.125