ATM2 for back rehab (Full Version)

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goodlooks58 -> ATM2 for back rehab (January 27, 2008 1:59:18 AM)

Has anyone tried or owns an ATM2 unit by Back project company? It is very ineterstting as I briefly saw a demonstration at a golf show.



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (March 31, 2008 3:37:29 AM)

I am putting one in my clinic at the end of the week.  I've been very impressed with the response of patients who I have seen treated with it.



jlharris -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (March 31, 2008 10:11:35 PM)

PainFree,

Some questions:
  1. What type of clinic do you run?
  2. What type of pt's (specifically) will get this machine/tx?
  3. Any research on it?
  4. What does it do that we can't do currently w/o the machine?
Always interested in new/emerging back pain treatment.



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (March 31, 2008 11:01:50 PM)

The ATM2 is based on Mulligan type procedures.  I see a fair number of patients and I am worn out at the end of the day.  I plan on using the ATM2 on the same group of patients I that would have done a Mulligan procedure on.  Their website is:  www.backproject.com



jlharris -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 1:47:46 AM)

PainFree,

Thanks for the response.  When you get a chance, can you try to answer #'s 1,3 and 4?  Much appreciated.



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 2:56:37 AM)

I'm in a private, NMS type practice.  My average patient is 25 - 65 years old and for the most part would be considered having a sedentary lifestyle.

I am not familiar with the research pertaining to the ATM2.

Lastly, I believe that you can achieve results similiar to the ATM2 by using your own hands and clinical knowledge of the Mulligan technique. 

Why spend the money on the ATM2 then?  I am wearing myself out working on patients.  At times, I become very creative (at the expense of looking foolish to the patient) in finding a pain free position and providing the patient with some resistance as they go thru their mobilizations.  Also, I understand that the ATM2 will often provide the patients with a "superior" clinical result as opposed to doing a simple MWM.  Economically, I feel that the unit will easily pay for itself.



proud -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 4:25:08 PM)

It concerns me to see great minds like Mulligan on a webpage where "testimonials" seem to be the rule of the day. It's a pretty shady webpage if you ask me. The research is suspect. I have no problems with new ideas and technology....but for the sake of credibility, please get solid research and outcome studies completed before throwing it out there as a true advancement in anything we do......and always avoid these testimonial based advertisments

Is this what's it's all about? Money? Have great thinkers reached the point in their careers where they toss out any credibility they MAY have into endorsing widgets and gadgets to cash in while they still have a chance?

I even think I saw the tag line "gauranteed pain free in one day" in there. Goodness people. Hey painfree, are you impressed with the outcomes....or the patient response?

Because if you like patient responses, I know a great thermal scan distributor I can put you in contact with. Patients love that garbage as well....



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 4:47:17 PM)

Proud,

I am impressed with both outcomes and patient response.  I would hope that you would be as well.  Unless, you are function in a purely academic world.



proud -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 6:04:06 PM)

So I gather you have outcome data? You yourself indicated this:

quote:

I am not familiar with the research pertaining to the ATM2


Sad. So what you are essentially saying is that you are willing to utilize a device without being familiar with the research? So...tell me again how it is you are impressed with the outcomes? Do patients tell you they "feel better"? Is that what you are basing things on?

And as to your comment:

quote:

Unless, you are function in a purely academic world


Can you clarify? If by that you mean that I expect professionals to understand the divide between anecdotal claims and research based claims....then yes, I function in an acedemic world.

Do you understand the distinction between measured outcomes and "testimonials".  Are you a PT or a Chiropractor can I ask?

Anyway, I don't fault you for wanting to trial something new with patients. Just be careful with the claims you make to them. The machine may go on to have true merit at some point. For now, I think it would be prudent to remain highly skeptical not only for the sake of patient care....but for the sake of professional credibility( if you are a PT).



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 1, 2008 6:31:49 PM)

Proud,

I am very, very familiar with the research concerning the Mulligan technique.  The ATM2 has impressed me with providing a similiar response to those utilizing it.  I have my unique reasons for using it as I have previously discussed.  Having said that, I agree that Mulligan technique and ATM2 are not one and the same.

I did not enter into this discussion to argue the pros and cons or whether the ATM2 has research to back it's use.  I was simply adding my comments and moving the discussion along.  I neither have the time nor the desire to discuss with you the merits of the ATM2.

If you will note, I am also interested in laser and heaven forbid, microcurrent.  My past interest have included Mulligan, McKenzie, Kaltenborn and a whole host of taping procedures (some of which have research demonstrating their effective and some of which do not).  I have been in practice for 20 years and have seen the good and the bad come and go.  Perhaps the ATM2 will join that list.  If you are ever in need of used therapy equipment, I probably have what you need collecting dust in the back of my clinic.

Feel free to have the last word.




proud -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 2, 2008 12:35:21 AM)

quote:



Feel free to have the last word.




Okay( said with a hint of sarcasm).

I do tend to get frustrated when I see professionals miscue on outcomes versus testimonials. You seem to have highlighted that little gem.

My point here was to make it clear that the gadget is just that....a gadget with very weak ,if any, true evidence( for the life of me, I am confused by the endorsments....perhaps I can see it from Sandy Burkhart.....).

Particularily put off by the 'painfree in one session" tag on the webpage....

PT's need to be acedemics painfree...It's the main advantage we have going forward in a competitive marketplace.

Otherwise you may as well get into a warm bath with your local massuere, Chiropractor, hypnotherapist, refexologist etc etc. Becuase your offering the same service in my mind.




TexasOrtho -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 2, 2008 2:05:56 AM)

Now children...I do kind of see Proud's point Painfree.  Does this device have research attached to it?  This is the first I've even heard of it, but my head may be stuck in the ground down here.  Also, I'm not interested in getting any calls or brochures on it, but I'd also like to know what the price point is for something like this.  Lastly, is their a cheaper way to get the same effect?

These are some of the questions I ask before diving into any new equipment or training.  Thanks in advance.



rwillcott -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 2:20:21 AM)

I have to agree that as a profession we have to be careful with the equipment we use in clinics.  We can begin to lose credibility when we start using equipment with no evidence to support their effectiveness.  I think it's unprofessional.

Painfree, you mentioned that your getting worn out performing Mulligan mobs.  Do you mean that performing the techniques are causng you pain?  Also, do you work in a busy private clinic?  My experience in private practice is that modalities allow PT's to see many patients at one time.  Is this machine being used in that way?

Do you really think a machine can replace the manual performance of a Mulligan mob?  If you read Mulligan's text it is made clear that there must be a constant communication with the patient.  There is a lot of trial and error and replacement of your mobilizing hand.  I don't think a machine could ever come close to the hands of a PT.

Rob



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 3:23:19 AM)

Rod,

You ask whether there is a cheaper way to get a similiar response.  Yes,  I believe that one can grasp the Mulligan concept relatively easy and get a similiar outcome/ response. 

RWilcott,

Yes, I work in a very busy private practice.  Am I in pain?  No, I am wearing myself out.  I am tired.  I have read the Mulligan textbook a couple of times.  My copy of the text, like me, is worn out.   I agree with you that the Mulligan technique requires fine tuning throughout the treatment.  From what I have seen, the ATM2 can approach the clinical effectiveness of the hands on Mulligan procedures.  Time will tell.



rwillcott -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 3:48:03 PM)

Painfree,

Sounds like the main reason you like this gadget is because you are tired.  I think we're all tired yet we don't resort to the use of trinkets and gadgets to let us take a break.

Rob



PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 4:51:23 PM)

RWillcott,

Looking at your thread on massage therapy, I don't think you should be judging me.  We each have our reasons for doing things and until your are in my shoes and are in contact with my patients, referrals and third party payors, I doubt that you can truly appreciate why I do what I do.



proud -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 5:24:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainFree

RWillcott,

Looking at your thread on massage therapy, I don't think you should be judging me.  We each have our reasons for doing things and until your are in my shoes and are in contact with my patients, referrals and third party payors, I doubt that you can truly appreciate why I do what I do.


Painfree keeps digging those holes....

True massage therapy is not valuable as a stand alone treatment. But in conjunction with prescribed exersises, can have benefit:


http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001929.html


Authors conclusion:

quote:

Massage might be beneficial for patients with subacute and chronic non-specific low-back pain, especially when combined with exercises and education.


So Rwillcott's thread on utilizing a massage therapist in practice is in tune with available evidence. Also, Rwillcott indicated HOW the massueur would be utilized( ie not as a subsitute for the expert care and knowledge of the responsible treating Physiotherapist).

Your backing of this widget without adequate understanding of the literature on the other hand is in tune with the centuries of snakeoil that has managed to effectively water down an otherwise reputable profession. Thanks for that.




PainFree -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 5:33:20 PM)

Proud,

You are jumping to conclusions.  For the record, I have no problem with anyone using massage therapy from a clinical perspective.  If you will read the thread, you will see it was more about the financial aspects of obtaining a massage therapist to work in your clinic. 



proud -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 6:16:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainFree

Proud,

You are jumping to conclusions.  For the record, I have no problem with anyone using massage therapy from a clinical perspective.  If you will read the thread, you will see it was more about the financial aspects of obtaining a massage therapist to work in your clinic. 


Well anyone involved in structuring the finances of a clinic is going to have to find solutions. That has nothing to do with how that person is then going to be utilized clinically. As oppossed to your endorsement of this widget in terms of how you will use it clinically( on patients).

It would be another story if the questions Rwillcott was asking was how to use massage in place of certain aspects of a Physiotherapists job to make it "easier". Apples and oranges painfree.

You're reaching.

Anyway...it's a widget....you endorse widgets. That's your right. And it's my right to suggest that sort of endorement places you "in bed" with the chiro down the street who claims some device made by NASA can diagnose spinal subluxations:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18731

Sound familiar? In terms of outrageous claims and the general "widgidness"?



rwillcott -> RE: ATM2 for back rehab (April 3, 2008 11:33:28 PM)

Painfree,

If you look at the beginning of the thread you will see that I simply wanted to know the best way to employ a massage therapist (self-employed vs. employed).  This in no way effects how I practice as a PT.  Others then discussed the specifics of self-employed vs. employed. 

Hiring a massage therapist is in no way a reflection of how I work as a PT.  I don't mind the 'tiring' techniques of placing my thumbs on a spinous process while a patient rotates their neck for 5 reps.  I do work out so maybe I'm just in good condition to withstand this strenuous technique.

However, you've got me thinking.  Maybe I should simply purchase a massage hydromachine rather than hire someone.

Thanks,

Rob



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