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Re: "Manual Therapist"
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 4, 2002 7:36:00 AM
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mcap
Posts: 652
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Diane:
I finished one set only to be assaulted by a group of additional assignments. I am still interested but may have to wait until the end of the term. Where is the link again? I will bookmark it.
Thanks again........
mcap
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 4, 2002 12:12:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Mcap,
Scroll back through this thread until you get to posts made Mar 24. The links are right there. (Jeepers....)
Diane
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 26, 2002 5:41:00 AM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Still waiting...
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 26, 2002 4:26:00 PM
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Bournephysio
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From: Calgary
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I’ve been meaning to post a reply to this thread for a while. The convex-concave rule is for the most part correct when trying to determine how the joint surfaces are gliding. For shoulder abduction there has to be an inferior glide at the joint surfaces. Otherwise the humerus will roll off the top of the glenoid fossa (assuming no acromion). I think that part of the confusion comes when considering translation of the humeral head. You can have inferior gliding at the joint surfaces and still get a superior translation of the humeral head. It just depends on the amount of gliding compared to the amount of rolling. If you only have a superior roll, the head of the humerus will translate superiorly. If you only have an inferior glide the head of the humerus will translate inferiorly. PTupdate: do you have that reference about the superior translation? I would think you would mobilize the inferior glide to prevent too much superior translation of the humeral head which would probably cause impingement.
Diane: I just read your first link. Quite a read. My masters degree is actually looking at scapular biomechanics. It will take time to digest but my initial impression is that there are some good points in there but he makes it overly complicated (in describing his model) and there are some blatantly wrong points i.e. bike wheels, spoke wheels still have to follow Newtonian mechanics.
Mcap: What program are you in? A PT engineer PhD would be a pretty scary combination. Computational neuroscience is pretty complicated and dry. I once tried to do a small computer model of a bunch of neurons in school. I remember seeing entire books on computational models of single neurons.
I’ll try to post more later.
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 26, 2002 9:12:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Aha! A bite! Read on Bournephysio, read link number two, let your mind wrap around integrins etc, then let's talk about how the body works and how manual therapy might work... [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
Diane
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 28, 2002 7:17:00 PM
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mcap
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Bourneo:
I am not in an engineering program although many of my facutly are. It is a biomechanics program. We do some engineering content, but I am guessing that we lightly cover some things covered in detail in engineering programs. When P.T.s consider biomechanics we often assume constant motion, and we usually stick to two dimensions. This is done in engineering as well but I think they go a lot further with variable motion and three dimensional modeling. I have wanted to switch for a while but time is creeping up [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/frown.gif[/IMG]
Diane......so....so sorry. I will be busy with school until about the 15th. Definitely will look at it when I can......
Mcap
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 29, 2002 6:58:00 PM
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Bournephysio
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From: Calgary
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Diane: I read the second link(scientific american) and reread your first link. My short summary. The sciam article was very well written, and I believe that the concepts are hugely important for physiotherapy in general. The Stephen Levin's article was not well written and is the wrong way to use these concepts.
I seem to recall this term being used in the past. I seem to recall seeing a bastardization of these concepts in some myofascial release course notes. Not sure.
Thing I found very interesting about the sciam article was the description of the cell cytoskeleton as a tensegrity structure. I have always vaguely thought of the cytoskeleton as a scaffolding. It was very interesting how gene expression could be modified depending on the shape of the cell. This has huge implications for research into how cells respond to mechanical stresses such as research into bone formation and osteoporosis. How a cell responds when on a flat glass plate may be very different to an invivo situation. The research would probably by much better if they could pull the cell by the integrins. One of the grad students in my lab is interested in tissue engineering. He may be interested in seeing this. I wonder if there are neural ion channels which respond to changes in cytoskeleton formation.
Spinal stability relies heavily on compression and tension. A spine without muscles will collapse with 90 N (about 9kg) of force. I find that physiotherapists often avoid the more technical articles on spinal stability. These concepts may make it easier to understand.
For Dr. Levin's page. There is no doubt that the shoulder relies heavily on these concepts. I found the diagram with the icosahedron's making up the arm to be very ammusing. His model gives me no useful information on how to model the shoulder joint. The clavicle is important in humans. The ribs are important for support of the scapula. You cannot get angular movement without moments. Levers are very important. You can't avoid shearing forces. The scapula undergoes both tension and compression. Dr. Levin seems to be missing a basic understanding of physics.
Convex/concave rule: One misinterpretation with this rule is in the elbow joint. The Canadian manual therapy system teaches that a medial glide goes with abduction of the ulna. I believe that this comes from the fact the the ulnar articluar surface looks like it is a male surface. This is true both at the coronoid process and the olecranon. Try to visualize abduction of the ulna with the "proper" male female glides occuring at the front and back of the joint. If this were to happen the ulna would have to break between the two joints. The only independant abduction that can occur would be from gapping and compressing of the joint. Not the best description but see if you can visualize this.
mcap: My thesis is looking at 3D scapular biomechanics. I'm trying to wrap my mind around Euler angles, transformation matrices, singular value decomposition and all these other fun things. I think biomechanics in PT school should at least include some description of Euler angles. When reading the literature we as PTs often assume we know what the angles mean without a real understanding of them.
Too many topics for one post
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - April 29, 2002 9:22:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hi Bournephysio,
Glad you found the second article. I agree with your eval re: relative quality of the two, and at the same time am heartened that an orthopod is thinking of tissue as being alive and springy! Good for him.
I agree that there are big implications in the Sciam article for manual therapy, even if the author was only thinking of cancer research. There are several other Ingber articles available. In some of his research he has managed to selectively pull on integrin receptors to see what would happen to the cells.
From "Integrin binding and mechanical tension induce movement of mRNA and ribosomes to focal adhesions" (Letters to Nature, April 1998 p 733), under Methods: "Magnetic twisting cytometry. Mechanical stresses were applied directly to cell-surface integrin receptors by magnetically twisting surface-bound ferromagnetic beads (4.5 um; Spherotech) that were coated with RDG peptide (3). A 1,000 gauss magnetic field was first applied for 10 us to align the moments of the beads 5 min after binding to the cell surface and then 0 - 30 gauss magnetic fields were applied in an orthogonal direction for five more minutes to exert a controlled shear stress (torque) to the beads bound to the cell-surface receptors."
Would you please email me?
Diane
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - May 1, 2002 7:59:00 AM
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Bournephysio
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From: Calgary
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Diane: your email is not available on the list so unless you are the Diane that I used to work with, I will need a way to find your address.
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - May 1, 2002 11:53:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hi Bournephysio,
Email problem solved. So sorry, didn't realize I hadn't made it available. I'm not the same Diane you worked with, I'm one of the way less well known Dianes. [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - June 4, 2002 12:30:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hello, Mcap, I see you are back. Hope you did smashingly wel on your exams, and look forward to reading what you think about these articles.
Diane
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Re: "Manual Therapist" - June 5, 2002 1:56:00 PM
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mcap
Posts: 652
Joined: February 8, 2000
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Urrgggghhhhh......
Being held to my word.......good one Diane [IMG]http://www.rehabedge.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG] Give me a few days to recover from my jet lag and finish up the last of my never ending independant study and I will have a look. Perhaps this weekend.....
Mcap
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