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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENS
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 5:21:41 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
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I feel all left out too Joe.
The whole effort you've made here and elsewhere seems a bit pointless really - there would likely be a thousand (figure pulled out of the air) PTs willing to stand up for the five listed, willing to serve as expert witnesses, eager to point out all the errors of thinking present in this claim. The rest might like to contribute some money to a defence fund or something (it's a idea anyway...).
It seems to me that this guy cannot defend himself scientifically (which is the modern PT way), so instead he has resorted to hiring you to be his messenger.
< Message edited by Diane -- August 15, 2008 5:26:50 PM >
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 5:48:27 PM
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Bournephysio
Posts: 585
Joined: April 25, 2002
From: Calgary
Status: offline
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Anyone familiar with Groklaw (www.groklaw.net)? I know that I am really exposing my geek side. There is a company called SCO that claimed that they owned UNIX (an operating system for computers) and that they knew for a fact that that a lot of their code was illegally incorporated into Linux (an open source operating system) and tried suing everyone in sight (IBM, Novell, Autozone) and threatened anyone using Linux. A paralegal set up a website dedicated to these lawsuits. This website attracted (and still does) a large community of people dedicated to collecting and examining evidence and tearing SCO's claims to shreds (apparently not only is there no UNIX code in Linux, SCO doesn't even own the UNIX copyrights). This was a hugely successful operation that likely prevented SCO from conning more companies into succumbing to their claims and I am sure even aided the excellent lawyers at IBM and Novell.
It strikes me that this would be a perfect model to defend against this absurd legal attack and probably do more damage to MFR than a few therapists on a forum. Heck, I'm sure we could gather enough evidence to write a review and get it published in a peer reviewed journal. How would that sound to your client, Joe?
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 7:13:25 PM
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Valerie McGraw
Posts: 3
Joined: August 15, 2008
Status: offline
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As Chief Physical Therapist of the Myofascial Release Treatment Center for over 18 years, I feel obligated to make a clarifying statement here on this forum as there seems to be some type of misunderstanding.
In no way is Mr. Pozzuolo or John Barnes attempting to deny anyone’s right to openly and intelligently debate an issue. That is an inherent right to all citizens of this country. The critical discussion in this legal action is not whether MFR has adequate research or is “evidenced based”. The issue brought up in Mr. Pozzoulo’s letter is the choice of words used to describe John Barnes and his treatment approach. Words such as “Predator”, “cult”, “quack”, and “criminal” have been used to maliciously defame John Barnes and MFR.
It is certainly one’s prerogative to state their beliefs and theories but not the attack on John Barnes’ character. There have been a multitude of comments posted about MFR over the past 10 years on different blogs including our own chatline. We encourage debate and commentary. However, the four individuals named in the letter are exceptions. They develop arguments by defaming John Barnes and MFR.
We possess much more information that has yet to be revealed that is gleaned from these individual’s attacks and distortions for over 20 years in which they are attempting character assassination! To make false and malicious allegations against another individual’s character is in fact unethical and illegal, nor is it representative of the kind of behavior that is deemed appropriate in any profession.
My point is that it is not acceptable to willfully make false, distorted and malicious statements attacking anyone’s character. We don’t need higher education to know this. It is something we all learned by the time we were in kindergarten.
Lastly, there appears to be a misconception in the comments to the blog that these individuals were notified by Mr. Pozzuolo’s blog letter. In fact, each of these four individuals personally received a copy of their respective complaint and a notification letter. The reason for sending this information to the blogs was a fair warning to these individuals and others that make false or malicious claims that there will be consequences to their actions.
Freedom of speech does not equal character assassination! The bottom line is that the false and malicious statements about John Barnes and MFR must stop.
Valerie McGraw, PT
Chief Physical Therapist
Clinic Manager
Paoli Myofascial Release Center
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 7:46:18 PM
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Valerie McGraw
Posts: 3
Joined: August 15, 2008
Status: offline
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This is a repost of my previous post in a more readable font style and size............
As Chief Physical Therapist of the Myofascial Release Treatment Center for over 18 years, I feel obligated to make a clarifying statement here on this forum as there seems to be some type of misunderstanding.
In no way is Mr. Pozzuolo or John Barnes attempting to deny anyone’s right to openly and intelligently debate an issue. That is an inherent right to all citizens of this country. The critical discussion in this legal action is not whether MFR has adequate research or is “evidenced based”. The issue brought up in Mr. Pozzoulo’s letter is the choice of words used to describe John Barnes and his treatment approach. Words such as “Predator”, “cult”, “quack”, and “criminal” have been used to maliciously defame John Barnes and MFR.
It is certainly one’s prerogative to state their beliefs and theories but not the attack on John Barnes’ character. There have been a multitude of comments posted about MFR over the past 10 years on different blogs including our own chatline. We encourage debate and commentary. However, the four individuals named in the letter are exceptions. They develop arguments by defaming John Barnes and MFR.
We possess much more information that has yet to be revealed that is gleaned from these individual’s attacks and distortions for over 20 years in which they are attempting character assassination! To make false and malicious allegations against another individual’s character is in fact unethical and illegal, nor is it representative of the kind of behavior that is deemed appropriate in any profession.
My point is that it is not acceptable to willfully make false, distorted and malicious statements attacking anyone’s character. We don’t need higher education to know this. It is something we all learned by the time we were in kindergarten.
Lastly, there appears to be a misconception in the comments to the blog that these individuals were notified by Mr. Pozzuolo’s blog letter. In fact, each of these four individuals personally received a copy of their respective complaint and a notification letter. The reason for sending this information to the blogs was a fair warning to these individuals and others that make false or malicious claims that there will be consequences to their actions.
Freedom of speech does not equal character assassination! The bottom line is that the false and malicious statements about John Barnes and MFR must stop.
Valerie McGraw, PT
Chief Physical Therapist
Clinic Manager
Paoli Myofascial Release Center
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 9:07:32 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Hi Valerie,
I'd say JFB is being a tad touchy. I've been told I could kiss an a$$, and that what I do is a "cult" - even though I can trot out all kinds of science to back what I do, which I have yet to see JFB do - and I was annoyed, which I suppose was the whole point of this person using those words, yet I did not sue or threaten to sue the individual involved. I'd rather have him understand and eventually change his use of language on his own, remove the offensive phrase himself eventually. This is the internet after all. Being a heavyweight in this way is likely to not earn JFB many friends on PT boards. He might instead consider dropping his suit, coming on forums like this himself and defending himself scientifically the way the rest of us have to. Why won't he do that? If he's not here, of course he'll be discussed. He should be here defending himself instead of hiding behind some law maneuver or sending you along to be his mouthpiece. He is being unnecessarily bullying IMO.
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 9:16:24 PM
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Kaden
Posts: 329
Joined: June 17, 2007
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Valerie,
I have read many of the posts you claim to be character assasination. I never took these blog posts as statements against Mr. Barne's character but rather as statements against his methods. The attack was on the lack of evidence for a technique and the many claims Mr. Barnes makes about MFR. The attack in my eyes was not on the person.
I agree there might have been better words to communicate the point, and that point being the claims made by many deciples of John Barnes, about the powers of MFR, simply have no proof or scientific evidence behind them.
Maybe a truce is in order. Certain choice words will be left out of discussions about MFR on blog site but in return Mr. Barnes should stop making some of the outlandish claims he does about the healing powers of MFR without anything to support such statements.
Mr. Barnes is a representitive of the PT community and many feel his continued non scientific, non proven thoughts about the healing powers of MFR in a way is an attack on the credibility of our profression. Don't expect PT's to sit idley by and allow that attack to happen.
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 9:18:43 PM
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steve
Posts: 470
Joined: May 14, 2003
From: Canada
Status: offline
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I think its interesting that instead of using science to defend the concept of MFR, a law suit is being used. Ironically, Webster's defines cult as:
Main Entry:
cult 
Pronunciation:
\ˈkəlt\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date:
1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion Could someone explain to me how this is an inappropriate useage of the word cult? Steve
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 9:23:22 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1506
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
I think its interesting that instead of using science to defend the concept of MFR, a law suit is being used. Ironically, Webster's defines cult as:
Main Entry:
cult
Pronunciation:
\ˈkəlt\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date:
1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion Could someone explain to me how this is an inappropriate useage of the word cult? Steve
I think John Barnes is credited with having claimed that there is no such thing as disease.
Uh-huh. Right.
But then he doesn't have to be the curer of anything, right? Very slippery.
I'd pick #5 as more appropriate:
quote:
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
Person = JFB
Idea = fascia
work = MFR
a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion = the ones who feel thrills in his presence.
< Message edited by Diane -- August 15, 2008 9:30:38 PM >
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 15, 2008 10:12:45 PM
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proud
Posts: 941
Joined: March 22, 2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diane
I feel all left out too Joe.
The whole effort you've made here and elsewhere seems a bit pointless really - there would likely be a thousand (figure pulled out of the air) PTs willing to stand up for the five listed, willing to serve as expert witnesses, eager to point out all the errors of thinking present in this claim. The rest might like to contribute some money to a defence fund or something (it's a idea anyway...).
It seems to me that this guy cannot defend himself scientifically (which is the modern PT way), so instead he has resorted to hiring you to be his messenger.
Count me as one of the thousands of PT's that would defend all those implicated. JFB and MFR cannot defend itself scientifically as far as I can see, and THAT is the reason for the frustration with HIM and his approach.
Valarie,
The fact that your opening statement was to highlight that you are a "Chief Physical Therapist of the Myofascial Release Treatment Center", automatically lowers your professional credibility in my eyes. Sorry. It would be no different for the chief PT of some CST program somewhere. I do not discriminate. I lean towards the science and evidence behind a treatment approach.
But what is even more frustrating is the fact that you seem unable to differentiate between professionals who understand scientific method and wish to hold others to a high standard of scientific debate and insight.... and slander.
For me....JFB is simply an unfortunate bi-product of a free market system. I am more concerned with those PT's taking the lecture series AND then failing to remain current( or at least attempting to remain current) with the emerging science and evidence based approaches available to them.
This lawsuit( if it's true) is foolish and only serves to lower our professional credibility. Shamless in my opinion.
< Message edited by proud -- August 15, 2008 10:22:56 PM >
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 12:52:18 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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The problem is, if Joe is Joe and his post is true... it will cost money for the lawsuit. The only beauty is that there is a high likelihood that Joe would lose (exactly how does one prove willful defamation AND what is it actually costing MFR?) which then could actually be potentially a GOOD thing for our profession. Barnes has no evidence that MFR is effective or any better than placebo. I would even go a tad further and state that Joe might not know everything about MFR because he stated no injury occurred from MFR, but if I recall, I believe I did read somewhere that there have been instances of physical therapists being charged with sexual misconduct (or whatever the term is) in providing that particular intervention. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but from a female patient's perspective, sexual misconduct can be psychologically damaging which could be interpreted as "injury."
If there is a case and it makes it to the court system, Barnes becomes a laughingstock. If Barnes chooses to go forward, he's strategically conducting professional suicide. The case would become documented and easily found on the internet for all to see. How exactly would Barnes then be able to market MFR when googling it would potentially bring up a court case and all the weird stuff currently found on the internet about MFR within the MFR site itself?
A better tactic would be to skip on paying attorneys and instead invest in research. Granted, if nothing pans out with the research, well, MFR and Barnes loses yet again.
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 9:06:24 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1474
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Well, I find it quite interesting (perhaps irritating) that all of Jason's posts have been deleted on EIM. Harris admits taking his post off his blog as he doesn't have the money and/or time to fight the possibility of a suit. Jason seemed a little higher up in the heirarchy at EIM, so either their own council indicated they were in the wrong, or they picked a fight with someone and are now running away.
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 10:08:52 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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John, it was not Jason S. who removed his posts on EIM.
Valerie, first - you have just publicly lost all credibility as a PT, aligning yourself for 18 YEARS with JB's shenanigans.
Second, there is NOTHING wrong with comparing John Barnes with a predator. Or his MFR with a cult. Or "quack" as a descriptor of him. The "predator" is a hunter for prey - have you SEEN some of the posts he published himself on his blog?
A "quack" - check the definition yourself. It is a bang-on description of the "great and loving man" himself. Excuse me while I vomit...
"Cult" was already well shown (thanks Steve!) to mean exactly the right word for MFR.
I think the poor people at MFR and Johnny himself have stirred up a hornets' nest now. Finally! The true cult-like behaviour is now coming out. Line up the
front men and women, let them take the flak, and the "great man" (puke) is sitting pretty in his wealth and gains of peddling garbage as valid therapeutics.
Thanks to all here who have provided their support to those so inanely accused. And to the cause of de-bunking the crap of MFR!
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 10:30:48 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1474
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Status: offline
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Bas, as I noted over on EIM, someone took the posts down, and I'm curious as to why. If they were in the wrong, admit it, perhaps aplogize, and we all move on knowing what we can/can't say on forums. They went after MFR clan pretty hard and heavy, and should have thought out all the possible responses that could have occurred.
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 11:56:22 AM
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proud
Posts: 941
Joined: March 22, 2006
Status: offline
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As deplorable as I find this behavior by the MFR clan....perhaps this could be a good thing? Finally some truths about pseudo-science may make the appropriate heads turn? Perhaps now is the time for those that stand for professional credibility will band together and beginning exposing the many half-truths( or no truths) that seem to exist?
It seems they have been hauled out of their cave....will they survive the exposure? I have my doubts....
Bring on those practicing CST, feldenkrias etc.... PLEASE......
< Message edited by proud -- August 16, 2008 12:06:07 PM >
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 6:01:25 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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John, what do you think then of my last post?
I state many rather harsh things with regards to JB, MFR and the group of groupies that adore at his feet... I can not believe that I should hold back. There are many more blogs with opinions - and realllly bad words about G. W. Bush - is he getting his knickers in a knot over this? Nah - it's the price of being in the limelight.
This is what JB has created for himself - his own pedestal is getting so high, it starts to catch more attention.
Let's call a spade a spade: he and his company has made $$$ like water, and there is - after so many years - still NOT one study that supports the underlying theory of his whole house of cards. All he has ever done, is gather tidbits of loose research, theories and studies, and blends them creatively (with words like "may", "could", "possibly") to fit his theory. And he claims that there is no such thing as disease. We can not call him out on this? Is that not the utterance of a loon?
And the crazy thing is - he gets away with this crap while his followers pay through the nose! AND they are expected to continue to take the courses - again and again!!
He is one of the main reasons I have this tag-line here.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 6:22:54 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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...and BTW: For Joe Polluozo, Bobmfr and Valerie: check the April 8th post of this blog (a description of a MFR treatment at JB's place). http://mfrjourney.blogspot.com/
You may want to distance yourself from this - or maybe not. If not, then be prepared to face some harsh criticism of the PT world.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 7:38:19 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 541
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
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Yeah not sure you are lending much credibility to yourself Valerie. Eighteen years? Dang girl you need to get out more. You do know there's more to life than this approach right? I understand you believe it works, but that shouldn't stop legitimate criticism.
John brings up a salient point about how we criticize. I prefer a quick punch to the nose in the form of telling me that you disagree and why you disagree. Most grown-ups can take it. Some (including those listed in the alleged lawsuit) do go the extra mile to belittle the messenger (JFB) and the message (MFR). I personally think all the energy devoted to blasting him on internet forums would be more constructively used by battling him straight up via peer-reivewed publication. The peer-review is what was missing from all the tom-foolery that led to this ridiculous lawsuit.
Bottom line, I support the guys listed in this lawsuit. I do think however, that the messages we send for or against certain approaches carry an emotional tone easily misconstrued by thin-skinned individuals and overzealous lawyers. In this case a frivolous lawsuit is resulting. I learned a lesson earlier this year regarding my comments on pelvic pain. The message should be clear, but as professionals we do have to be more aware that folks are reading what we say. While 95% may agree with our point of view, there is likely to be someone in the remaining 5% ready to go through great lengths to make sure they make us pay for having this opinion. Does that mean we should stop saying what we believe? Hell no. But it should make us think before we post.
Its sad, but this is the only good I can take from this sorry-ass situation.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- August 16, 2008 7:43:18 PM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 10:09:06 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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If Barnes isn't able to view himself as a person and MFR as whatever it is (an entity or an intervention or a philosophy of care - I'd like to say a snake oil quackery, but that'll get me in trouble :)), well, that's also where some of the problems arise.
If he can't separate himself from the enterprise he has created, then from his perspective that is where he feels the personal attacks. Seems strange he has never, to my knowledge, chosen to discuss the topic openly among those of us who refuse to be "followers" or those of us who are proud that we aren't in the supposed 1/3 of the population of physical therapists. Wouldn't it be more valuable if in his shoes to discuss the issues versus supposedly contacting an attorney?
Maybe what should be done is send our concerns to "myth busters." That crew is pretty good at physically challenging various myths some of us have believed for years... I wonder if they can do anything for a biological myth? Hmmm... Let the expert "myth busters" play around with rabbit fascia... that would be interesting. Is fascia really a problem in living creatures?
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 16, 2008 10:25:18 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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And, Joe... here's something interesting: quote:
Last Login August 15, 2008 6:59:14 PM
Not interested in commenting, Joe? Psst... if you happen to decide to educate yourself just a bit on physical therapists - evidence-based is where the profession is moving. Your client has no credibility when it comes to any evidence on humans with regard to the effectiveness of MFR. Google Scholar it... PubMed it... MFR has been around for a LONG time now... where's the evidence? It may just be placebo.... if it is placebo, isn't it kind of expensive to be learning something that has a high amount of placebo (from a physical therapist perspective) and what about outside stakeholders? Don't you think that unproven interventions just might increase the cost of health care? Also, have you ever watched Bachelor or gone to Vegas? If you have, think about those environments... fantasy, fun, not the typical day in and day out kind of environment... look at the atmosphere of the MFR treatment location in Arizona... combination of beauty/spa.... why do you think that is? Just something to ponder.
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RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS V... - August 17, 2008 7:36:03 AM
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proud
Posts: 941
Joined: March 22, 2006
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What I don't think Joe and Valarie( and of course Barnes) understand is that this will likely result in a more unified , ravenous group of professionals looking to expose pseudo-science. Our profession should demand it....and the patient population deserves it.
This will not deplete the efforts, I think it will increase it.
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All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> RE: MYOFASCIAL RELEASE TREATMENT CENTERS AND SEMINARS VS. DORKO, SILVERNAIL, WARE, HARRIS & BLICKENS 
