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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 7, 2008 12:49:01 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Agreed. No need to classify exercises in this manner.
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Rod Henderson, PT
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 8, 2008 2:30:13 AM
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Snothy
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I believe some of the confusion or disagreement can be attributed to use of the term-set "open chain" and "closed chain". It seems to me some respondents are giving good definitions of kinematic chain conditions, while others are describing the less specifically defined and somewhat theoretical "kinetic chain" activity. In the former, closure specifies real physical connections of a certain geometric form irrespective of energy/force, and in the latter, closure suggests isolation and constancy of system energy, not necessarily dependent on a physical shape configuration. It may also be possible that some proponents of "kinetic chain" concepts are not actually discussing physical kinetics in the strict and classical sense. And, too, there may be more than one concept of "kinetic chain" being discussed as a singular concept - sort of like describing European football and American football as if they were identical games.
I think the more fundamental problem is related to some culprit in the fuzzy past having unfortunately originated the use of the term "link" or "chain" in association with "kinetic". This association of terms very much suggests a material manifestation, as in a chain link of a bicycle, in situations in which there may not be any material linkage of components. Instead, the "chain" or "links" may be constituted as a series of intangible energy states to describe the motion of some mass(es) under the influence of some force(s).
In essence, the original question, "Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise?", is not sufficiently specific to be answered directly. It would serve better to first discuss the difference between kinetics and kinematics, and then discuss the differences between a kinematic chain and a kinetic "chain".
From STEINDLER, Kinesiology Of The Human Body, 1955, page 63:
"A kinetic chain is a combination of several successively arranged joints constituting a complex motor unit. We designate as open kinetic chain a combination in which the terminal joint is free. The waving of the hand is an open kinetic chain in which the action of the shoulder joint, the elbow joint, and the wrist joint are successively involved."
A closed kinetic chain, on the other hand, is one in which the terminal joint meets with some considerable resistance which prohibits or restrains its free motion. Eventually, the external resistance may be overcome and the peripheral portion of the joint may move against this resistance, for instance, in pushing a cart or lifting a load; or the external resistance is absolute, in which case the proximal part moves against the peripheral, as for instance, in chinning oneself on a horizontal bar; or the limitations of the muscular effort may assert itself both peripherally and proximally and may be unsurmountable, in which case no visible motion is produced. Only in the latter instance is the kinetic chain strictly and absolutely closed. However in common use we apply the term to all situations in which the peripheral joint of the chain meets with overwhelming external resistance."
As you may see, this is a really muddled hodgepodge of many things and a demonstrated somewhat poor comprehension of otherwise clear physical concepts. The author seems to be attempting to recombine kinematics with force considerations, and then to redefine Newtonian inertia and merge the redefinition with the concepts of stable and unstable equilibrium under special conditions of human joint and muscle configurations. From my point of view, this idea of motion sets back the generality of physics all the way to the 14th Century. Perhaps it's time to abandon this antiquated and oblique construct entirely.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 13, 2008 8:03:28 PM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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The business part of the jump is the time in contact with the ground. Never seen anyone get hurt while in the air, its the landing. the UEs are doing open chain things but again, never seen anyone pull a deltoid or pec while in the air.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 13, 2008 8:35:44 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Tom, that is funny - it made me think of my skydiving days: it's not stepping off the strut, it's not the free fall - it's the ground coming up to meet you that causes all kinds of worries.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 14, 2008 11:58:03 AM
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Bournephysio
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good point Tom. I now see the light. In fact it is now clear to me that we are doing a huge injustice to our ACL injury population. Considering that the vast vast majority of acl injuries occur during closed kinetic chain exercises, I suggest that we immediately stop doing closed kinetic chain exercises with these patients and move completely and exclusively to the obviously much safer open chain exercises.
Rod, I think we are fighting a losing battle. I'm not sure why people don't get it.
Doug
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 14, 2008 4:41:30 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Doug, I think you misread the tone of Tom's post. To me it seems that he is taking the closed chain much more seriously than the open chain.... At least, that is how I took it.
From the thread's general tone, it seems that most here are on your side of the fence.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 15, 2008 9:31:38 AM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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Doug,
What I was trying to point out was that in order to rehab an ACL for example, we have to address what failed. The individual with a torn ACL failed to control a closed chain event. You cannot train a muscle group to fire in response to a closed chain load when it is in an open chain environment. You can make it stronger, but it is not the strength of a muscle that failed, it is the failure of the muscle group(s) to fire WHEN they are supposed to. Therefore, the best and most effective use of rehab time when rehabbing LE injuries, that almost always occur during contact with the ground, is by training the limb when it is on the ground, receiving the proprioceptive input that it will have to recognize and deal with during functional activity.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 30, 2008 2:11:06 PM
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Bournephysio
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Sorry for the late reply.
1. Closed/Open chain terminology doesn't follow the accepted engineering definition
2. The definitions we rely on are incredibly vague.
3. Close chain exercises are apparently safe for ACLs and thus are used in early rehab but most injuries are closed chain mechanisms so are unsafe. So which is true. The answer is both it all depends on the specific exercise.
So we have a classification that doesn't use the proper definition and instead uses an vague definition and that isn't useful clinically. Why even use it?
Tom, your post for the most part follows well known motor control principles but your use of closed chain terminology may insinuate that the control gained in any closed chain exercise would transfer to controlling a similar task to that which caused the injury. Which we can be pretty sure is not the case. If you removed the closed chain terminology from your post and instead used motor control terminology, it would be much more precise and accurate.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 10:25:11 AM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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Bournephysio,
I am not sure I understand why you don't think my last post was accurate or precise. My focus on LE injuries, whether they are patello femoral syndrome, ankle sprain, ACL tear or whatever is to train the system that failed to work better. That is almost always the balance/proprioception system.
Systems that are loaded respond and improve at that particular task, Wolff's law. If you onlhy train muscles to contract with conscious effort, they will not learn to contract in response to the proprioceptive cues that will trigger automatic reactions.
In your post you typed:
"your use of closed chain terminology may insinuate that the control gained in any closed chain exercise would transfer to controlling a similar task to that which caused the injury. Which we can be pretty sure is not the case."
I don't see how you can say that. That is exactly what I am trying to accomplish. That is the goal, and that is what happens. How can you be "pretty sure " that it is not the case.
Of course it transfers. That is what training does. The more the training drills/exercises/activities are similar the the target task, the more directly it transfers. Doing open chain Isokinetic exercise does not transfer to jumping. Jumping transfers to jumping.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 1:41:36 PM
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buckeye
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Tom Reeves - I am glad you responded to Bournephysio. I am not sure where he was headed in reponse to you, either. Your use of SAID principle makes sense to me.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 2:35:37 PM
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Bournephysio
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"similar the the target task" This is the key phrase. It has NOTHING to do on whether it is closed chain or not. Do you think that wall squats while trying to squeeze a ball between your knee will transfer to trying to cut at high speed in a game situation? How about cycling? Not a heck of a lot. Remember that task similarity does not just mean biomechanics so even jumping might not necessarily transfer to jumping. It is not that unlikely that someone trained to jump properly will revert to their poor ingrained pattern when confronted with a game situation. The use of closed chain/open chain terminology is imprecise and useless. It needs to be terminated.
Doug
ps Wolff's law only deals with bone and isn't much use there either.
< Message edited by Bournephysio -- July 31, 2008 3:06:27 PM >
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 5:54:39 PM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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First, I never said that doing wall squats with a ball would do anything. In fact, it looks NOTHING like jumping or any other functional activity that I can think of. Training a system, whether it is a muscular contraction, a reflex, a skill like throwing a ball or swinging a golf club requires repetition. If you do not believe that repetition of the appropriate movement pattern does not enhance that pattern, then I question your knowledge of motor control.
"it should be terminated"??? you sound like BORG "resistance is futile."
Frankly, it does have everything to do with being closed chain. If the pattern you want to enhance, lets say jumping, you cannot enhance jumping by doing long arc quad exercises. You MUST train the entire system by giving the system the cues it will receive to act, then reinforcing the correct responses to those cues.
I don't see how this is so hard.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 5:56:08 PM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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ps, Wolff's law applies to more than bone. The concept applies to muscle overload, skin thickness (callus), aerobic conditioning, learning math, nearly everything biological. geez
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 6:48:42 PM
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TexasOrtho
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I think you guys are fighting over semantics and usage, not the actual concepts themselves. You both clearly understand what's going on. The fact that two people understand the phenomenon but still can't agree on how to describe it makes me think the problem isn't the individual, it's a poorly defined construct. That's precisely why the terminology should be terminated.
I'll be back...
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - July 31, 2008 11:11:35 PM
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Bournephysio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Reeves DPT ATC
First, I never said that doing wall squats with a ball would do anything.
No you said closed chain exercises would. Is this not a closed chain exercise? Do you not see my point. What information does "closed chain" give you about an exercise that couldn't be stated more precisely without jargon (i.e. weightbearing, squating, jumping etc).
quote:
If you do not believe that repetition of the appropriate movement pattern does not enhance that pattern, then I question your knowledge of motor control.
If you believe that a few repetitions of the appropriate movement pattern will guarantee transfer to a completely different situation then I question your knowledge of motor control.
quote:
You MUST train the entire system by giving the system the cues it will receive to act, then reinforcing the correct responses to those cues.
I agree.
quote:
I don't see how this is so hard.
Neither do I.
Yes, Wolff's law strictly refers to bone. It is ironic that you bring this up. In bone circles, it appears to get quoted mostly out of tradition. It has little predictive value and is often outright wrong. Appropriate for this conversation.
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RE: Do you consider jumping open or closed chain exercise. - August 1, 2008 7:52:25 AM
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Tom Reeves DPT ATC
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Ok, I generalized, open vs closed in my original posts. Point is, if you hope to train the system, you have to impose similar forces, speeds, and angles on the system as the target activity.
Why does practice with a golf coach improve your swing? Because you learn the correct movement patterns, velocities, and positions and make your swing more reproducible. True practice makes permanent, not perfect, unless you practice well. That is why closed chain (in general) more closely simulates those activities where injury usually occurs (iin the LE) than does open chain. that is my point better stated.
Further, you are correct regarding Wolff's law, however, there is a definition of Wolff's law that refers to all biological tissues, hard and soft. See below. Wolff's law has been generalized to the soft tissues, maybe I should have said Davis's law (way below) except I had never heard of Davis's law, only applied the exact same principles to soft tissue.
I am done with this
Wolff's law,
n.pr a law according to which biologic systems such as hard and soft tissues become distorted in direct correlation to the amount of stress imposed upon them.mosbyCAM()
Jonas: Mosby's Dictionary of Complementary and Alternative Medicine. (c) 2005, Elsevier. Davis' Law - the relationship to outside stress and the reaction to it of soft tissue
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