not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (Full Version)

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proud -> not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:04:28 AM)

I ask because I truly don't know. I imagine somehow they got political approval to use the term. But to me...I think it's a bit deceptive considering the educational institutions and acedemic requirements.

Anyone know the background on that one?



ginger -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:25:59 AM)

Just one of many first rate marketing ploys used by the salesmen and women of chiropractic. Remember , it's a business first kind of mentality that pervades the chiros from induction to retirement. You only have to scan the posts in a chiro blog site, most posts have to do with investment, tax, schemes for improving wealth etc, a very small number actually discuss clinical issues , as is the norm for PT driven sites. They are calling themselves Dr. because they can.



proud -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:32:15 AM)

Thanks Ginger. But HOW did they do it? And can it be removed?



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 10:47:03 AM)

Depends where you are. But in many western countries, the use of Doctor as a title is strictly up to the institution and type of education. There are Doctors of Naturopathy, Homeopathy, Physiotherapy or Physical Therapy, Acupuncture, Theology, Chiropody, Podiatry, Psychology, Osteopathy, Dentistry, Pharmacy, Optometry etc etc. There are NO national laws here in north america controlling the use of the title.

They did it by ...doing it. When formalizing the education for chiropractic, they started using the title Doctor. More precise details are undoubtedly available from a DC on this board.

I do not think the title is an issue. I think the use of the title is... And its use is controlled by the local governing bodies (in Ontario, the College of Chiropractors of Ontario) - it falls under Standards of Practice and Code of Ethics. Pharm, Podiatry, Dentistry, Physio, Physicians, Naturopathy, Optometry etc etc have their own Colleges protect the public.

Not much can be done about the use of a title when within the rules of those Colleges.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 10:47:45 AM)

If I am not mistaken, in the Netherlands, chiros can NOT call themselves "doctor"......They are called MR. or MRS.



proud -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 11:22:51 AM)

Well...it's deceptive and should be remedied ASAP. Patients need to know that a Chiropractor is really not a "dr" in the sense they think....

It's marketing and deception and should be removed(IMHO)...



rwillcott -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 11:31:35 AM)

DD Palmer was a brilliant salesman.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 3:29:12 PM)

Yes - he was.



Jon Newman -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 4:38:14 PM)

Proud,

Why should the practice be outlawed?  Don't they have a Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) degree? 

I'm not advocating that people should promote themselves in a manner which makes mis-interpretation of their professional education easy.  I suppose the devil is in the details though.  EIM has a related blog entry started by Larry Benz--Click here



TexasOrtho -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 4:51:21 PM)

Not sure why this is too big a deal at this point.  It's kind of like debating latin grammar.



proud -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 5:48:22 PM)

Jon,

As always...rather peculiar way to word things....but I think I understand you.

To answer, anyone that reads here knows that I am all for improving the care provided sourrounding conservative NMSK managment. Right now...it's a forest of confusion leaving a mis-informed public holding the bag.

If one NMSK expert emerged, there would be no need to wave the "dr" banner around in attempts to lure more patients. So as it stands now...I don't think DPT's should hold themselves out as "dr". Simple fact is in the true acedemic sense they are...but that is not what the public has come to know the term "dr" for and our primary responsibility is avoid confusing the public. Any ethical provider holds the patient as the number one project in this thing we call medicine.

And most certainly a Chiropractor is no "Dr". Not even in the acedemic sense. How it happened is beyond any reason.

It's deception and needless used for the sole purpose of luring and marketing to a dazed and confused public. A DPT can exist that performs CST( it happens) and in the eyes of the patient they are seeing a "Dr".

How many times have you seen a PT, MD, surgeon roll their eyes at the notion that a Chiro is a "dr". It's just plan BS. They know it....we know it...and patients should know it. Simple.



Jon Newman -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 6:57:59 PM)

I always have a peculiar way to word things?  Please feel free to ask for clarification when I write something or even better, point my peculiarities out as I'm clearly ignorant about them.  Doing so might be helpful.

Perhaps I misunderstood your opening.  When you ask "Why are chiropractors called "Dr", in what context are chiropractors being called doctor and who is calling them that?  Are those calling chiropractors "doctor" being upbraided if they don't?  I think these types of things matter.  I'm not sure what the Canadian PT association recommends regarding titles but the APTA position is currently that we present ourselves as physical therapists regardless of our degree when we are practicing as physical therapists.  At least that's my understanding.  I think it's wise and probably sufficient for guiding/regulating PT practice.

I'm not familiar enough with what academic standards need to be met in order for a program to award a clinical doctorate (or even PhD, MD, etc.) so I can't quibble with your assertion that chiropractic programs don't meet that standard. 

Do you think there are any conditions in which the term doctor could be used in an acceptable manner (to refer to a DPT)?  I've never heard of a degree where the title of it could not be uttered by the degree earner or by those speaking to (or referring to) the degree earner.



proud -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 7:22:17 PM)

quote:


Perhaps I misunderstood your opening.  When you ask "Why are chiropractors called "Dr", in what context are chiropractors being called doctor and who is calling them that?  Are those calling chiropractors "doctor" being upbraided if they don't? 


Patients Jon...patients call them "dr". surely if you treat on a daily basis you would see that. Not only would you see that...you would note the particulars of what the patient THINKS that means.

And in a nice concise manner...you managed to highlight your peculiar wording in the above paragragh. "upbraided"??? who says that? And what on earth do you mean?

By whom? Do you mean are patients scolded if they don't use the term? I don't know. What is the relevance of that question?

Mine was simple. How did they get the title "dr". I mean...I truly do not know. I'm asking.

So far...no one knows it seems?



Hpsg -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 7:57:48 PM)

Proud,
quote:

Patients Jon...patients call them "dr". surely if you treat on a daily basis you would see that.


They also call each other "doctor", usually with well-practiced eye contact and a lingering handshake to demonstrate their tremendous respect for one another's doctorishness.



Jon Newman -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 8:20:13 PM)

quote:

How did they get the title "dr". I mean...I truly do not know. I'm asking.


I assume they got the title Doctor by completing their Doctor of Chiropractic degree.  I already mentioned that I don't know what specific standards need to be met in order for a program to award a clinical doctorate.  You stated

quote:


And most certainly a Chiropractor is no "Dr". Not even in the acedemic sense.


This makes it seem like you do know despite your claim to the contrary.  Why isn't a Doctor of Chiropractic a clinical doctorate?

I'm not currently working full time but I didin't notice a particular trend of patients calling chiropractors "doctor" when I did so your thoughts about employment status being relevant aren't accurate in this instance. As it happens, I treated an 87 y.o. fellow last week who told me about his "chiropractor."  Maybe the practice of calling chiropractors "doctor" is a regional phenomena.  Although I have heard things (even in my part time status) like, "I went to see my chiropractor, Dr. so and so."  I don't see anything wrong with that.  Is that the type of thing you are talking about?  Or are patients literally referring to Dr. so and so without any sort of reference to that person being a chiropractor?

I think if patients are corrected when they call their chiropractor "Benjamin" instead of "Doctor", then that represents a higher level of involvement in terms of creating a specific sort of culture.  Whether that is seen as good or bad depends on where one stands I suppose.  I wouldn't encourage it.

By the way, I use the term upbraided and I'm not even a doctor.  Did you have to look it up?  I have to look up words all the time.  I think it's a good thing.



ginger -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 8:31:32 PM)

Proud , I wonder if , in a off camber way , the self laudatory implications of chiros calling themselves Dr, may actually draw attention to the myriad oddities and clinical lack of propriety inherent in chiropractic. The general public IS closer to the mark than was so when Palmer came to his world stage . In my own clinical world I'm forever hearing negatives about chiros from patients. Yes I'm in a biased position , but the perception I'm aware of generaly is that chiros are about on a level with used car salemen and parking inspectors for respect. By continuing to mark themselves with a paper version of an indicator for respect , they may well add to their own demise.



proud -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 8:36:10 PM)

rolling eyes...

jon,

Yes of course they got the term "dr" because they graduated from a Doctor of chiropractic degree...what on earth...

The question is what is the validity of the title? Lot's of people go to college....why and how did Chiro get the tag "dr"?

I just fail to see the logic.



Hpsg -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:00:57 PM)

quote:

why and how did Chiro get the tag "dr"?


The story seems to be that they gave themselves that title back when anyone could. They failed to relinquish their self-perceived right to the title when asked to do so by raised medical standards enforcers in the early part of the 20th century (see Flexner report). The political forces of the day were easily manipulated into letting them retain the title. Freedom of speech, right to liberty and happiness and all that...

DOs on the other hand cooperated with the report. To be able to remain legitimate "doctors" in the eyes of medicine itself, they undertook the task of upgrading their schools to be compliant with updated regulations. So DOs are "real" doctors according to medical self-imposed standards, but chiropractors are not.



TexasOrtho -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:15:43 PM)

I used to get really pissed off about this issue.  Particularly in the context of the training chiropractors get.  I'm a bit of a snob on issues like this but chiropractic really is more of a trade school than an academic program.  I think there are several reasons a natural equilibrium will result in the chiropractic profession.

Reason 1:  Look at PT and medical schools being affiliated with public institutions of higher learning (Penn State, OSU, John's Hopkins, Baylor. Now compare this to most chiropractic learning centers nestled in between the local Yarn Barn and Cracker Barrel.  It puts things in perspective.  Chiropractic schools are the ITT of the health care world.  Necessary, but no where near the caliber of legitimate academic institutions.  This may seem "ivory tower", but I think the distinction is significant.

Reason 2:  Chiropractic tuitions are out of control.  Just go hang out with the folks on chirotalk for a few days and you'll see some very sad stories about the state of chiropractic education.  The result is default rates that are out of this world (particularly considering income - see reason #3) and disincentives for students to enter the field and financial institutions to support them.

Reason 3:  Third-party payers are catching up with providers.  We are ALL scrutinized to a much greater degree and it's hurting the chiros more than most of us.  I don't gripe about reimbursement nearly as much after reading what the chiros are getting hit with.  Many of these folks aren't making what PTA's can earn within five years of graduating.  It's pretty sad when you consider how these institutions market chiropractic to unsuspecting students.

Bottom line - chiropractic is killing itself and needs very little help from us in the PT profession.  We are well ahead in the race.  We just need to keep fending off petty infringements into our practice act and the chiros will continue to bleed out.  I truly wish the best for the individuals currently practicing and training, as I think most are well meaning individuals with good hearts.  It just shows you that you can't survive on a flawed theory for long.  I think it's a good lesson for the PT profession:  we must also continue to evolve or we too will follow the same trend.  Fortunately I see us headed in the right direction.

Let's look ahead and fight the battles in front of us. 



rwillcott -> RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr" (June 15, 2008 9:31:09 PM)

Between the Yarn Barn and Cracker Barrel, hiliarious!  What a great analogy.  Great post TexasOrtho.  The fact the PT schools are part of highly prestigous universities is the reason why we are well respected.  The Chiros recognize this as well.  In fact they made an attempt to become part of a University in western Canada during the late 1990s.  Fortunately the university declined the request after meeting with chiro offiicials and touring their 'college' and recognizing they had no research to support their claims.



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