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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors called "Dr"
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 18, 2008 1:45:08 AM
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jlharris
Posts: 476
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From: Nebraska
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasOrtho
My solution would be transparency as proposed by many in our profession. Saying "I am a doctor of physical therapy/chiropractic" is as appropriate as saying "I am a doctor of medicine". ...
I agree. And, as a side note, I am moving to Oregon and reading through the state practice act it is ILLEGAL for me to call myself "Dr. Jason Harris" despite a doctoral degree. I can, however, introduce myself as "Jason Harris - Doctor of Physical therapy".
Ya know, I think I agree with it. However, DC's, OD's, and ND's are able to go by "Dr. such and such". Just wish it was level across the board.
Oh, and how about the trend by DC's to now go by "Chiropractic Physician"? I would say 90% of DC's in the Omaha/Council Bluffs area list that as thier title. IMO, just another way to mislead the laypublic as to what DC's are truly educated in and able to do - conservative MSK care and NOT primary care (those same 90% also push hard for pediatric, "mantaince" and "preventative" care with SMT).
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 18, 2008 1:44:21 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1706
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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quote:
And, as a side note, I am moving to Oregon and reading through the state practice act it is ILLEGAL for me to call myself "Dr. Jason Harris" despite a doctoral degree. I can, however, introduce myself as "Jason Harris - Doctor of Physical therapy".
Jason, is it legal to introduce yourself along the lines of, "Hi, I'm Dr. Harris from physcial therapy"?
Consider this from California--click here-->link
From the above link:
quote:
Examples of verbal communication would be “Hello, I am Dr. Jane Smith, and I will be your physical therapist.” In cases where the physical therapist is certain that all persons who could hear the conversation would know that Dr. Smith is a physical therapist and not a physician and surgeon, the disclaimer would not need to be included. And quote:
In conclusion, a physical therapist who uses the title “Dr” is responsible to make sure that no person believes that they are a physician and surgeon. In the event that a complaint is received by the Board that a physical therapist is representing themselves as a physician and surgeon, the fact the complainant has that belief would indicate that the physical therapist had not met the burden of responsibility.
Such a position would make things like having license plates such as BAC DOC a bad idea as it would help build a case that you present yourself ambigously. Perhaps Oregon hasn't produced such a document. Or perhaps they have but it is much more stringent.
< Message edited by Jon Newman -- June 18, 2008 8:46:04 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 18, 2008 2:32:12 PM
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bonez
Posts: 230
Joined: August 29, 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jlharris
quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasOrtho
My solution would be transparency as proposed by many in our profession. Saying "I am a doctor of physical therapy/chiropractic" is as appropriate as saying "I am a doctor of medicine". ...
I agree. And, as a side note, I am moving to Oregon and reading through the state practice act it is ILLEGAL for me to call myself "Dr. Jason Harris" despite a doctoral degree. I can, however, introduce myself as "Jason Harris - Doctor of Physical therapy".
Ya know, I think I agree with it. However, DC's, OD's, and ND's are able to go by "Dr. such and such". Just wish it was level across the board.
Oh, and how about the trend by DC's to now go by "Chiropractic Physician"? I would say 90% of DC's in the Omaha/Council Bluffs area list that as thier title. IMO, just another way to mislead the laypublic as to what DC's are truly educated in and able to do - conservative MSK care and NOT primary care (those same 90% also push hard for pediatric, "mantaince" and "preventative" care with SMT).
I would feel that you would be correct to be able to use the title that you have worked for. I'm doubtful that you would hold that you were practising medicine so to have to qualify it seems tough too.
Sebastian is right that there is not likely actual research as to the number of DC's using the physician and to use a total this high does push the limit somewhat.
< Message edited by bonez -- June 18, 2008 2:36:54 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 18, 2008 8:56:06 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1706
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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Sorry DPTs (desring to refer to themselves as "Doctor" in the clinic) in Oregon. According to this document (click here-->link) which is apparently up to date as of May of this year, PTs are subject to disciplinary action for the use of the title "doctor" in the clinic.
From the link
quote:
Grounds for Discipline of a Licensee
(D) Using the title "Doctor" or "Dr." with patients in a practice setting or on business cards, letterhead or professional advertisement or signage. A physical therapist who holds a doctoral degree in physical therapy may only use the initials "DPT" or the words "doctorate in physical therapy" after the physical therapist's name.
< Message edited by Jon Newman -- June 18, 2008 9:13:06 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 22, 2008 2:52:46 AM
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PhysioG
Posts: 3
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From: Canada
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My understanding is that they lobbied members of parliament, senators, etc to be able to use the title legally. I think that this “lobbying” came in the form of cash/political support. I don’t know this as fact, but this is my suspicion...I may be wrong.
If a Chiropractor has another explanation I’d like to hear it, as this is only my understanding of the issue.
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 22, 2008 8:05:01 PM
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bonez
Posts: 230
Joined: August 29, 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhysioG
My understanding is that they lobbied members of parliament, senators, etc to be able to use the title legally. I think that this “lobbying” came in the form of cash/political support. I don’t know this as fact, but this is my suspicion...I may be wrong.
If a Chiropractor has another explanation I’d like to hear it, as this is only my understanding of the issue.
All provinical regions now have acts "legislation inancted" which lay out the guidelines for the use of the title. There are differences from region to region on what is included with the title. As an example in my area I have limited hospital and laboratory privilges as part of my licience. I am unaware that there was cash trading hands on the legislative floor 40 or 50 years ago when the acts were being put together.
< Message edited by bonez -- June 22, 2008 8:10:33 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 3:30:30 PM
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docluv
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Joined: June 24, 2008
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This could be the most ridiculous thread that I have read on here to date. Why can Chiropractors call themselves doctors? Because they are. Give me a break. DPT programs adding a few classes to a Masters program calling themselves doc's? Please. Lets be honest here, I am a DC that teaches in a medical school program. I work with PTs that think the DPT programs are a joke. I refer to PT when needed and it has its place. MOre hospital systems are hiring DCs and are seeing a higher patient satsifaction rate for back and neck pain than with PT. Thats not my take, its the price-gainey research analysis take on quicker returns to work and patient satisfaction.
Proud, you asked about having the title removed? Ever hear of the Wilks Act?? Its never going to happen. And the next time I refer someone to PT for 8 visits and they miss a disease process cause they didnt know the DDX changes during care I will post this.
Give me a break. Work together for the patient as we do in our system where everyone gets along. This thread is biased, argumentative and short sighted.
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 3:48:07 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Well well, docluv. Nice name BTW.
Did you read all the posts?
And you found them all biased, argumentative and shortsighted?
It is clear in your choice of words that you seem to have no trouble letting your own personal opinion shine through - or should I say GLARE through.
And of course, by the flavour of your post, your opinion carries more weigth than anyone else`s here?
Take a breath. This post of yours makes you look like a rooster puffing up his chest.
quote:
Lets be honest here, I am a DC that teaches in a medical school program. uhuh. Yes, let`s be honest....
You should have noticed that there are quite a few posters here who have no issue with the title `doctor` for chiros or PTs.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 4:04:27 PM
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docluv
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Sebastian Asselbergs..No not all the posts, I am referring to "prouds" posts and direction of this thread.
And yes, I teach NMS Diagnosis in a medical school.
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 5:38:38 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 541
Joined: December 22, 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: docluv
This could be the most ridiculous thread...
....This thread is biased, argumentative and short sighted.
And you aren't helping "Doctor Love". It was starting to quiet down and thanks to you it will continue to live on. You'll notice that not everyone shares the extent of Proud's sentiments. Take Bas' advice and relax.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 7:02:41 PM
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proud
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quote:
MOre hospital systems are hiring DCs and are seeing a higher patient satsifaction rate for back and neck pain than with PT. Thats not my take, its the price-gainey research analysis take on quicker returns to work and patient satisfaction.
As somewhat expected, great knowledge of the legislation and legal ramblings...but here is a little acedemic knowledge:
http://blog.evidenceinmotion.com/evidence/files/george_arch_phys_med_rehab_2005.pdf
And while you are at it...research the properties of "patient satisfaction"...you might be suprised what patients are "satisfied" with.
< Message edited by proud -- June 24, 2008 7:17:02 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 7:17:59 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Interesting study proud. It seems to support patient satisfaction with the delivery of treatment (PT), but shows weak correlation with symptom relief. Mixed messages - happy with the HOW , so-so with the HOW WELL.
Anyway, thanks for showing the positive feedback for PT for LBP. It does seem to fly in the face of the earlier statement of docluv.
BTW, docluv, did you know I taught workshops in the US and Canada to MDs and Orthopods and DOs and DCs and PTs? Between 1991 and 2005? And was faculty at U of T, Department of Medicine, Physiotherapy, until 1999? Wow eh?
And what the heck that has anything to do with the subject at hand, I do not know. Neither does your teaching position, hence my somewhat sarcastic: "Yeah, let's be honest" remark.
Well thought out arguments carry much more weight than tossing around credentials - I know, I have a few credentials, and screw up in major ways!
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 7:28:15 PM
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proud
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Well Seb, As Nicoli Bogduk( I beleive) stated....as long as patients "like" you and believe what your selling...that's half the battle.
In other words, so long as you are a good salseman....patients are likely to be satisfied with their treatment....yet long term.... may be no better despite being "satisfied"!
This BTW...is another "property" that ill-informed insurance companies fall for: "well, it looks like patients are satisfied....let's continue to cover that service...." It's simply wrong headed. The majority of patients report being satisfied with cranio-sacral therapy becuase usually the practitioner is a bit "touchy feely" and provide eloborate explainations....patients LOVE....LOVE the eloborate explaination don't ya know......
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 7:36:20 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 541
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Indeed a very good article. Thanks for posting that proud. Again we are on the same page with the issues. I am looking forward to learning more from "Doctor Love" down the road.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - June 24, 2008 7:37:18 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
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From: Barrie, Canada
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proud, that is true. And it seems to support my contention that any change towards more science based MSK will have to be through grassroots changes (see the other thread LOL).
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - July 2, 2008 6:29:21 PM
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docj04
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I posted this quite a while back, but thought it may be a worthwhile addition to this thread---
I can't help but add my thoughts on this...
I can not speak for every Chiro program vs. every PT or DPT program out there, but I can say w/out even remote reservation that the curriculum that I went through at my chiro school compared to that of my fiances MPT curriculum was by far and away MUCH more detailed in depth and breadth in practically every aspect. Sure, I will admit that her school provided some more education in specific rehab protocols, but with the FAR superior training provided by my "trade school" in the realms of anatomy, neuro,biomechanics, patho/physio and stages of healing, designing a safe and effective rehab program hardly presents a challenge, and certainly is not a problem in any case that I've come across in my meager 1.5 years since graduating. BTW, we both have our B.S. in exercise phys.
Now, I AM NOT suggesting that DC is clinically superior to PT in every situation, as there is NO SUBSTITUTE for experience, and collaboration or at least communication b/t professions is always beneficial. Further, I WILL suggest that within the PT professions obvious and understandable lack of contentment with it's past(and present)niche in the health care realm, there are some seemingly very sour, or at least insecure members of the profession that feel the need to validate themselves by bashing the Chiros--many of which are on this board, to no surprise.
I would be willing to this day to take a fresh PT or DPT grad and a fresh grad from my trade school, and by some objective(of course)method, compare their level of expertise and knowledge in basically any area of healthcare delivery and overall knowledge of the human body. I'd bet my bottom dollar it would be...at least competitive.
Like it or not, Chiro's are considered doctors by the entire structure of the government, insurers/third party payers, etc. In most states, the scope and PRIVELEGE of practice is much broader than that of PT's in treatment and diagnostics and therefore responsibilities. A bone of contention for the PT profession? OF COURSE--and for some more than others, obviously.
I applaud and envy the PT profession for it's self-imposed higher educational criteria and expanded curriculum, and of course it's killer unified lobbying efforts to obtain what Chiro has ALWAYS enjoyed--INDEPENDENCE and AUTONOMY. It's a precarious situtation for the PT's though, as they must be careful not to bite the hand that feeds them, nor cut off the coat tails on which they've ridden on for so long. It seems all I hear about is POPTS--that's the acronym, right?.
Chiro has ALWAYS been slighted by the rest of healthcare b/c the rest of healthcare has always been strong armed by the AMA which was, of course, proven in the U.S. supreme court to have attempted to drown out the chiro profession. Now that makes it difficult to survive, let alone thrive. The politics are daunting. This was of course during a not-so-long-ago time when the PTs were still HAPPY to get the rehab "scraps" thrown to them by the medical community. It was basically the entire purpose of the the PT existence. Now, the PT profession has decided to cause some distention in the ranks. Again, The politics are daunting.
I will also be the FIRST to point out that chiro has flaws within it's own regulation, as there do indeed remain some serious QUACKS out there. That lack of standardization, and it's tolerance by my profession(although it is getting better)is indeed MY source of malcontent and even a bit of embarassment(sp)with my profession.
Nonetheless, I will continue to do my ****dest to cement professional relationships(I'm soon to be partnering with an ortho surgeon to do a good deal of his rehab),and to learn, improve, and provide the best treatment that I can, and enjoy the freedom, autonomy, independence and priveleges that my not-a-real-doctor DC certificate affords me.
Truthfully, Im shocked that I let myself get into this, and I won't be continuing this dialouge. Just thought I'd throw in my humble opinion and perspective. Good luck to everyone with doing what we all really want to do...help the patients. ;)
....Since this was originally written: I have married my PT wife and indeed partnered with the ortho surgeon. Things are going great--on both fronts!
< Message edited by docj04 -- July 2, 2008 7:18:56 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - July 2, 2008 6:40:49 PM
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proud
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Thank you doc. Classic.
If I may. you said:
quote:
...but I can say w/out even remote reservation that the curriculum that I went through at my chiro school compared to that of my fiances MPT curriculum was by far and away MUCH more detailed in depth and breadth in practically every aspect
Is that by your account, your "fiances" or by a third party independent analysis of curriculum?
Then you said:
quote:
Further, I WILL suggest that within the PT professions obvious and understandable lack of contentment with it's past(and present)niche in the health care realm, ...
Really? Actually PT's are very well established in health care systems. I do not recall anyone speaking about that but rather discussing the possible neagtive implications of multiple providers of suggested similar care.
You arrive here in a cloaked way attempting to sound non-biased. yet all get's revealed here:
quote:
It's a precarious situtation for the PT's though, as they must be careful not to bite the hand that feeds them, nor cut off the coat tails on which they've ridden on for so long.
coat tails eh?
Then the greatest of all things chiropractic:
quote:
Chiro has ALWAYS been slighted by the rest of healthcare b/c the rest of healthcare has always been strong armed by the AMA which was, of course, proven in the U.S. supreme court to have attempted to drown out the chiro profession. Now that makes it difficult to survive, let alone thrive.
Oh the blasted AMA.....
And you indicated that you would be working with an orthopeadic surgeon. That I do not doubt. No one would suggest that a Chiropractor cannot provide excellent care. But I think the tone of this posting of yours is very telling( coat tails...AMA..). I would think that lack of professional acumen would come ringing through along your times with the ortho.
And posting a post that chimes in with those ringers( coat tails...AMA) and then suggesting you cannot believe you got into it and that you would not be engaging in this dialogue is of no suprise.
We would welcome you back for some further discussion if you would like however. but let's leave the coat tails and AMA out of it shall we?
< Message edited by proud -- July 2, 2008 7:01:58 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - July 2, 2008 6:45:43 PM
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docj04
Posts: 15
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Proud--too busy wrapping up the days paperwork to deliver another profound and thought provoking reply? (I know I am, and this is so distracting--which is probably why I "indulge".)
< Message edited by docj04 -- July 2, 2008 6:55:04 PM >
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RE: not meant to be chastising: why are chiropractors c... - July 2, 2008 7:23:27 PM
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proud
Posts: 941
Joined: March 22, 2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: docj04
Proud--too busy wrapping up the days paperwork to deliver another profound and thought provoking reply? (I know I am, and this is so distracting--which is probably why I "indulge".)
Okay. Come back any time( and bring your "fiancee", I'm sure she/he would love to hear your thoughts)....
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