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RE: chiropractic lawsuit
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 21, 2008 10:50:13 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 541
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We will miss you sorely...
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 21, 2008 10:51:13 PM
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T_Thom
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If polled, PTs would side with neurologists when it comes to recognizing risk of upper cervical manipulation and potential adverse events. Unlike chiropractors, PTs are formally trained in providing rehabilitation to people with CVAs. Orthopedic care is only one part of our practice. In my short lifetime as a PT, I have already encountered 2-people who were told by neurologists their injury was related to chiro manipulation. Believe it or not, no bashing has occurred with the patient. Things are always kept very professional, that's just etiquette, despite what Wellness thinks. On a PT fourm, this IS where we can discuss these things.
Why can't PTs and DC's just get along? PTs have a long history of dealing with fires set by the chiropractic profession attempting to limit or undermine our scope of practice. PTs are typically on the defensive, more than the offensive when it comes to this relationship. A few small examples:
Arkansas passes act to protect chiropractic; this has nothing to do with patient safety or practice infringement. Manipulation has been a part of the normative model of PT education for a long time. This has everything to do with creating a monopoly, and restriction of trade from the profession of the greatest threat: Physical Therapists.
Arkansas PT Michael Teston, was set-up, falsely accused of "performing chiro without a license", and unfairly tried while acting within his scope of practice. The point of this case is to set a US case law example, intending other states will follow.
Countless chiropractors misrepresenting themselves to the public, advertising physical therapy either illegally, or via loopholes in state practice acts. This practice by individuals who consider themselves is clearly intended to be deceptive, intending to fool the client that what they are getting is the same, or close enough.
I believe link is related to the upcoming Oregon Ballot Initiative which intends to block anyone but chiros & MD/DOs from performing a spinal manipulation. Apparently, Oregon has been targeted for this because voters will be distracted by various other issues, therefore vulnerable and will be used to set precedent in other states.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 7:54:58 AM
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proud
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Well stated t-thom. Especially the part about formal training with CVA's and treating other neurological issue.
The fact is, Chiropractic is simply a static profesion. Their mandate is to protect themselves at all cost...including patients.
As expected, the CCA just came out with a statement on this latest lawsuit....and instead of acknowledging the concerns....went straight on the defensive quoting anything and everything that defends their ability to generate income. All of which was discounted here and also within one simple letter written by the Yale Neurologist. let's hope the legal team is clever enough to know how to win this one. There is certainly enough evidence.
The CCA should be ashamed of how it has chosen to react here. They may well feel their position is valid, however now is the time to step up as a credible "profession"( loosely utilized) and instead of turning a blind eye to the debate, chart a course of collaborative in depth investigation. In the meantime, agree to cease the procedure until the risk/benefit is firmly established.
By the way....here I believe is the link to the "contact us" page of the lawfirm involved:
http://www.fmc-law.com/Miscellaneous/ContactUs.aspx
In case anyone here might want to bring them up to speed on a few items...such as this:
http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/7/330
< Message edited by proud -- June 22, 2008 11:26:42 AM >
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 1:07:30 PM
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rwillcott
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I think it's clear that upper cervical manipulation should be stopped until further guidelines can be developed. This would require that chiro's accept defeat and move on. What bothers me is what they will move on to. More than likely start grabbing ahold of the PT profession. Therefore I would like to see provincial and state PT boards start taking the necessary steps to pevent chiro's from claiming they perform PT. I beleive that it will take chiro's a good 10 years to regroup and become accepted again. In the mean time it will be interesting what they will do to keep their heads above water.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 3:40:14 PM
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jma
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T_Thom, what was the final outcome of the Michael Teston case? I knew it went though appeals but nothing else was ever written about it that was posted elsewhere.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 7:51:45 PM
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bonez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwillcott
I think it's clear that upper cervical manipulation should be stopped until further guidelines can be developed. This would require that chiro's accept defeat and move on. What bothers me is what they will move on to. More than likely start grabbing ahold of the PT profession. Therefore I would like to see provincial and state PT boards start taking the necessary steps to pevent chiro's from claiming they perform PT. I beleive that it will take chiro's a good 10 years to regroup and become accepted again. In the mean time it will be interesting what they will do to keep their heads above water.
I have patiently stayed quiet for the past couple of days but can anyone tell me how in one post (T thom) there is a complaint about US chiros trying to grab a hold of manipulation against other professions with this action being unfair evil handed etc. and two posts later the suggestion that chiros better not retool and learn rehab because physical therapy should be in the exclusive hands of PT?
While I for one work presently collabratively on a day to day basis with PT and have felt that is a very good way to go. These kinds of posts show me that this entire theme is not about patients or what might be right but in fact simply a battle for turf and income.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 8:14:49 PM
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proud
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quote:
I have patiently stayed quiet for the past couple of days but can anyone tell me how in one post (T thom) there is a complaint about US chiros trying to grab a hold of manipulation against other professions with this action being unfair evil handed etc. and two posts later the suggestion that chiros better not retool and learn rehab because physical therapy should be in the exclusive hands of PT?
While I for one work presently collabratively on a day to day basis with PT and have felt that is a very good way to go. These kinds of posts show me that this entire theme is not about patients or what might be right but in fact simply a battle for turf and income.
Bonez
I think you have read into this comment from Rwillcott the wrong way. It's actually a compliment to the chiropractic machine. There is no better group of individuals at marketing and lobbying efforts than chiropractors. I know a graduate of CMCC and parts of their trainning involves the nuts and bolts of building a practice. Chiropractors have had to develop this skill of course due to the shody foundation on which the trade was built.
Rwillcott, being Canadian, recognizes the general apathy within his own profession( especially true here in canada). He is calling upon his own profession to take similar strides as the APTA. Physiotherapy has abundant literature that supports it as THE primary choice of all things NMSK. Unfortunately, our apathy and extremely poor marketing skills have not allowed us to take advantage of this fact. It is pretty evident when the public is mostly unaware that PT's manipulate the spine....when it's deemed useful....in line with the evidence(read: no maintanence manips).
Chiropractors have managed to create a "kleenex" brand out of spinal manipulation. When people think about spinal adjustment....it's automatically equated to chiropractic. It's a testament to the chiropractic marketing machine.
Rwillcott is simply acknowleding that and suggesting that PT's become less apathetic otherwise Chiropractors will create the same brand association involving PT.
It's really quite simple. The best system will be one where the public is not confused about who the expert is in conservative management. There truly is no need for duality( it's pointess really). I personally think its' going to be Physiotherapy due to our training and the research being produced at an exponential pace. But if it comes down to marketing rather than who is producing the research....my money is on chiropractic....and clearly if Alberta is paying for maintenace chiropractic manipulation....governments are more swayed by marketing than the evidence( yes....my eyes just rolled)....
< Message edited by proud -- June 22, 2008 8:28:25 PM >
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 22, 2008 9:36:15 PM
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rwillcott
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bonez,
My post was not meant to appear that PT's should battle for 'turf'. I do know that chiro's are experts at marketing their profession. Therefore if cervical manipulation is under threat I question what the next marketing move will be. I would hate to see more chiro clinics proclaim that they perform physiotherapy. You mentioned that patient safety should be the main concern. Well this is a patient safety concern. Misleading patients that physiotherapy is offered in a chiro clinic is not in the patients best interest.
My post was simply stating that as a profession we should do our best to protect against this. Provincial governments should also take note of this mess in Alberta and protect against this.
I think you would agree that you would not like it if I placed a sign in my clinic window stating I perform chiropractic. The difference with me doing this as a PT is that I would get slapped with a lawsuit so fast that my head would spin. However, my profession has been so passive over the years that a chiro in Ontario, Canada can advertise they perform PT and there's nothing we can do. Sad really.
I am simply concerned that we will see more of this deception.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 23, 2008 2:30:18 AM
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bonez
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Joined: August 29, 2007
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Well the public first and foremost associate chiro with manipulation and PT with electronics and exercise. I hope that we both know that the public preception and what is actually the case is quite different.
As you are aware manipulation is now available to the PT world. This was after decades of critical talk about it's use. So much so that in the late 90's there was a move to sanction chiros that might have been involved in teaching it to the PT world. Similarily there is no reason that chiropractic education can not be expanded to include more than it does already on application of exercise as it relates to functional deficit, soft tissue treatment for adaptive shortening scar tissue, neuromuscular reeducation and electrotherapeutics so that it too can offer a comprehensive solution to the patient population. There may even be a case made for PT's to be in on the teaching.
The beauty is that the research that will guide the correct choices has already been done (thanks PT) so a lot of time won't have to be wasted getting up to speed. Combine this with the tremendous marketing experience (I must have missed that class) that already exists and a guy could retire from active practise and be busy just teaching all his collegues what they need to know and turning them loose.
I think that PT would be well served not to drive the subluxation masses in this "new" direction because if there is one thing known in my profession that group is extremely hard to eliminate. They can and will rebrand themselves into flavour of the week if that is where the action is and they really don't care who they run over doing it. Left in the state they may find themselves they are more likely to turn toward the evidence based segment of their own profession.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 23, 2008 2:45:47 AM
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goodlooks58
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From: CA
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Not to worry...Chiros already have chosen their path in Califronia--we have chiros doing PT in MD clinics especially solo orthopod clinics and here as a PT I can only sit and get mad and cannot do anything. I found out about this particular situation when I saw a patient with also most a frozen shoulder afetr rotator cuff repair with PT done by a chiro. PT was mainly manip of the cervical spine with moist heta and e-stim. There was nothing done for post-op shoulder rehab as the chiro had never done like this before. Seems like the chiro marketing techniques are definitely working on MDs!
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - June 23, 2008 9:49:46 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 541
Joined: December 22, 2007
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The best man at my wedding was (is) a chiro. We've gone at it much more passionately than on this forum. He's a good enough egg...but I could still kick his butt. 
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - July 3, 2008 12:58:59 AM
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bonez
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I had not seen the CNN post but as has been discussed here there are some interesting misinformations provided by CNN's neurologist which simply go on to cloud the waters. When asked how people are to know if they are seeing a reputable chiro he goes on to say that "there is a licencing board like there is with most medical professions" and further if they (chiropractors) are doing xrays before they are doing manipulations.
Unfortunately the piece tried to distance the two professions chiro and MD but the closing segment simply lumped them together. It also promoted the use of useless tests as a premanipulation screen implying that this would help eliminate the risk which to my knowledge is not even i the worst current literature.
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RE: chiropractic lawsuit - July 3, 2008 8:13:15 PM
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OAK
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CNN got the story wrong. They imply that VA injury is the result of improper technique by an unqualified practitioner. This couldn't be further from the truth.
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