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RE: Self-policing opportunity
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 11:01:47 AM
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SJBird55
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Well, if you aren't a Christian, Bas, then you might not understand where I will wrestle with the beliefs I am supposed to follow. Those particular examples that I provided where I would have a difficult time are not just because the act performed was illegal... but because my role as a Christian is supposed to be to forgive and to not judge. How can I not judge those types of actions; can I forgive those types of actions? How am I professionally supposed to have compassion and care?
So, since Crevidence made the soft blanket statement... Crevidence, was the soft blanket statement aimed toward Christians? I tend to believe it was because you use the Virgin birth and the Resurrection as prime examples. What population other than Christians believe in those two examples. Of course that kind of statement would be taken personally by me since I am a Christian. I am and will disagree that because I am a Christian I have some tendency to believe more readily anything that seems impossible. I can only speak for myself and I know that I am not wired that way. I question; I challenge - in fact, I always have.
I gave my own personal example of when practicing Christianity for me would be difficult. For me, I don't follow unsound non-evidence-based physical therapy principles... for me, Christianity is more about how one lives ones life; it is more in choices I am supposed to be making to behave as a Christian. Generally speaking, from a religious perspective, physical therapy and the choices I make during my days really don't keep me awake at night wondering if I'm making the right choice that are in alignment with my Christian beliefs.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 11:59:22 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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Well, I do not know if I am a Christian. I have found that calling oneself one thing does not make that a fact. What does it mean ?
Even you call yourself a Christian and clearly have trouble at times BEING one. So, is it THAT difficult to see how certain people may have their problems with the tenets of a religion conflicting with ethics of a profession ? Maybe (likely) NOT you, but others...
I really do not know if I am a christian - and I think that works just fine in my practice.
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Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 12:31:04 PM
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Jon Newman
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SJ, do you think "Christian principles" are unique to Christians? When I hear the phrase "Christian principles" I wonder what makes the principles Christian. To me, saying "Christian principles" is like saying "Chiropractic manipulation." Do you agree?
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 3:00:34 PM
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SJBird55
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Jon, if one doesn't believe in Christ, do you think the principles would be the same? I think people who are not Christians can have principles very similar to Christian principles. We have many laws that coincide with Christian principles. I guess the difference would be in why the principles are relevant. Take for example... killing someone is wrong. Why is it wrong? Some could say it is illegal. Why is it illegal? Because it is a law. Why is it a law? Because some group of people decided that killing someone would be wrong and be punishable and killing someone would not be an acceptable behavior in society. Christians might have a different perspective. Killing is wrong because one of the 10 Commandments addresses killing. Lives are to be respected because there is a bit of Christ in each of us. Killing someone would be considered a mortal sin and any sin, whether it is mortal or not, errodes the relationship one has with God. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with your final statement. I'm not sure what you are trying to convey. I honestly can't see where some manual technique can be compared to something that is broad and covers the way Christians should lead their lives.
LOL Of course I have difficulty, Bas. Peter had the same problem and denied knowing Christ 3 times. And Peter was one of Christ's closest friends... he was the "rock" from which the Church was built... I'm sure Peter believed himself to be the most loyal of the disciples... but when push came to shove, in the heat of the moment, even Peter couldn't be a Christian at that moment when Christ was being physically beaten. I'm not going to sit here and lie and say it's easy and a walk in the park. Yeah, I fail... I fail miserably sometimes.
What I still don't get is how since Christians can apparently believe something that seems impossible and apparently unproven that by that alone, Christians might be willing to believe in accupuncture meridians and FRS lumbar segments. I'm sorry, but I honestly am not getting it. In the real scheme of things and with life in general - accupuncture meridians and FRS lumbar segments are such nothings. They don't matter. My faith and the decisions I make during my life matter... they matter big time to me. I think there is a difference in the unproven things we may believe and the hierarchy in which we place them in our lives. When I'm on my deathbed, whether I believed in FRS lumbar segments or not is going to be an irrelevant issue... whether I believe in Christ or not might be a different story.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 3:37:04 PM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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quote:
Jon, if one doesn't believe in Christ, do you think the principles would be the same?
In short, yes of course. The principle of not killing people requires the action of not killing people whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc. The principle does not belong to anyone exclusively.
quote:
I guess the difference would be in why the principles are relevant.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Many subscribe to the same principles although the story behind each may be unique. Thus the only thing that distinguishes a Christian principle and a non-Christian principle is whether the Christian notion of God gives his stamp of approval on the principle. Actually, to be precise, whether the people who speak for God (or have spoken for him) give (gave) His stamp of approval. It's a difference of whose authority one subscribes to, not a difference in principles themselves.
I thought my example regarding "chiropractic manipulation" versus "manipulation" would provide enough emotional distance and be familiar enough to see the point I was making, which is why I used it. I think you got what it was I was trying to convey.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 4:38:14 PM
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Crevidence
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SJBird55
What I didn't appreciate was a "soft" blanket statement that basically indicated Christians may have a weakness in believing anything.
I assume you are referring to this statement.
“I simply assert that those who believe in virgin births and resurrections (things with no evidence) may be more likely to believe in assessment techniques which have no evidence such as acupuncture meridians and FRS lumbar segments“.
This assertion indicated no such thing. How does this reasonably approximate what you stated? This is a reasonable assertion. I would like to see you logically break it down and prove the assertion false. This is how we learn. You have not made an intellectual refutation to this assertion as of yet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SJBird55
Our nation was built on Christian principles. Obviously there has to be value within those principles for the founding fathers of this nation to actually use Christian principles.
The man who essentially wrote the Declaration and was practically the father of the US was a Deist. He apparently found no usefulness of the supernatural events in the bible or he would not have created the Jefferson bible. Where did the Christian principles come from?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SJBird55
Crevidence, was the soft blanket statement aimed toward Christians?
If you refer to the assertion I made, I can assure you that other religions have had virgin births and resurrections. These ideas are recycled in religion. To think my assertion is about Christianity alone is over confident at best.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 5:29:19 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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This is getting a bit convoluted. 
Now being a christian requires perfection, or at least, perfect behaviour?
"but when push came to shove, in the heat of the moment, even Peter couldn't be a Christian at that moment when Christ was being physically beaten"
It always worries me when biblical quotes and writings are taken literally. I bet you there are listers here who have done as I have - tracked the translation and editing history of the bible. It is so often looked at as if it has been unchanged, unedited since day one (pun intended) and virtually "lifted" in its entirety from the first century.
I can't help but vent a bit here about the issue of Peter as the rock of the church (the catholic one). I am inclined to think that if Jesus indeed viewed Peter as the rock of his future church (=community), he would cringe at what that rock has become. A top heavy, doctrine laden, pope-led hierarchy, changing bible interpretation by committee, changing bible content and so forth and so forth.
I'll stop now - I realize I may be offending some people here. For that, I am sorry if that is the effect indeed.
And SJ, unless there is a uniform definition of what makes a christian, what you say as a christian is limited to what your behaviour and beliefs are. I know too many who take much straight from the bible and hold it as proof evolution does not exist for instance. Who firmly believe that the universe is only about 6,000 years old. These are christians too. And likely to believe a hell of a lot more weird stuff.
Now, if we had seen a quote from the q'uran at the bottom of an islamic university page, or a quote from L. Ron Hubbard at the University of Scientology, I bet crevidence would have offered the same concern. I would have.
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 5:34:26 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Bas I'm glad we can respectful on such a sensitive issue. This is from Webster: Faith -
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. By definition we all have faith in one form or another, and it's a matter of the journey not the destination. I screw my faith up on a daily basis and can only hope to work toward the ideals of my faith. I think most of the bad press we see regarding religion and spirituality is not an indictment of the faith itself but the enourmous screw ups along the way.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 5:44:37 PM
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TexasOrtho
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quote:
I can't help but vent a bit here about the issue of Peter as the rock of the church (the catholic one). I am inclined to think that if Jesus indeed viewed Peter as the rock of his future church (=community), he would cringe at what that rock has become. A top heavy, doctrine laden, pope-led hierarchy, changing bible interpretation by committee, changing bible content and so forth and so forth.
I'll stop now - I realize I may be offending some people here. For that, I am sorry if that is the effect indeed.
[snip]
Now, if we had seen a quote from the q'uran at the bottom of an islamic university page, or a quote from L. Ron Hubbard at the University of Scientology, I bet crevidence would have offered the same concern. I would have.
Now you've dropped the gloves Bas.  Peter as "The Rock" is high theology that even the most learned scholars of faith disagree upon. How can you or I (or anyone on a physical therapy forum) possibly hope to debate this to a reasonable end? You nor I do not have the background to debate these issues on a productive level, any more than two high-school dropouts could debate the merits of different mobilization techniques for the shoulder. I think you should continue to develop your faith as you see fit. One of the merits of adulthood is supposed to be the epiphany that no one really cares what you think on such matters, as faith is highly personal. Sorry, but you did strike a nerve on this issue with me.
Let's retire this particular issue if you don't mind.  Frankly, you should be more concerned with why Canada can't field a team in the NHL Finals.
Regarding whether you or Crev would have the same degree of fear or worry regarding quoting Scientology or the Q'Ran, no one could speculate. Your judgement (and you would most certainly be judging) of raw peer-reviewed data on the basis of the authors spiritual beliefs is your problem. It does not make the data any more or less relevant to the objective eye.
You're a good egg Bas, but the tone of your posts sounds like you've been burned. I can only pray (seriously) you find what you are looking for.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- May 16, 2008 7:09:11 PM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 7:09:55 PM
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ginger
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Beliefs, they can burn you , support you, tear you apart, mislead you, change you, alter your perspective , and prejudice can arise from the attachments to them. We all have them. Some of us even believe that our beliefs are better than others. Still more will kill ,maim and rape on the basis of a belief, feeling justified, even glorified in the handing out of judgements according to their beliefs. Christians are no less capable of acts of piety and humility than those of other beliefs. History reveals that christians have been capable of the most heinous crimes to humanity , driven by those beliefs. Without the balancing effects of a community of clear thinking ( often atheist ) humanitarian people , many communities , even nations , would fall under the spell of popular beliefs. It is as well that we all understand the power of belief. wether a belief can claim to be the truth is a matter for believers to consider, a worthy passtime.
I prefer to just get on with the business of life, attempting , even striving , to give believers a place , while holding on to my own views ( and beliefs )
Hitchins is a great read, especially his more recent work ,somewhat mirroring that of Dawkins. I recommend their work to all believers.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 7:14:05 PM
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ginger
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correction,
that should have read Hitchens, appropos his book "god is not great, how religion poisons everything"
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 7:22:13 PM
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Jon Newman
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Hi Rod,
Thanks for the help with the article you cited before. Do you have any interest in doing a critical analysis of it on your blog? I'd be interested in reading your thoughts about it.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 8:10:22 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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Rod, I don't mind at all - I called it a "vent" which it was; - not an attempt at debate and I should have kept it out of here.
I do take umbrage at your contention that one has to be of a certain lofty academic theological position before having a coherent discussion on these subjects (not rants!) You can not equate theology with science. And I have had some very deep and enlightening conversations with Tom Harpur, a Canadian author with a decent theological pedigree (google him) - quite an oddball at times, but very very well educated. He could not call himself an expert......
And finally: I have found what I am looking for. I was never burned - I learned a lot from my past. I appreciate the thought though.
Time to make an exit.....
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 16, 2008 8:42:52 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Like I said. You are a good egg Bas.
Jon and Bas. You guys might want to consider reading or listening to "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. I read it last year, but it is also available on iTunes if you like audiobooks. It is a fascinating treatment of the topic and really good mind food.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity
---
Add: The book is actually a transcript of a series of radio broadcasts Lewis made while the Brits were getting the crap bombed out of them in WWII. It was said that the Lewis held a lot of people together with these broadcasts during a very dark time.
----
Bas, I'm sorry you left the church, but I'm glad you are content with your faith. I have no doubts you will continue your trip at a good pace. Jon, you are reading my mind on the blog idea. I'm just not sure anyone really gives a rats A$$ what I think about spirituality in medicine. I'd need to avoid interjecting too much editorial into it as I am prone. I will give it a shot and see what happens.
I'm working on a pain-related blog entry on the heels of my recent but tragically brief adventures with SS. I hope doesn't reflect just how unrefined my current approaches are on this topic , but I have really enjoyed the blogging process so far.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- May 16, 2008 10:59:08 PM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 17, 2008 9:40:58 AM
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kiwi PT
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Whoops... I wandered onto the wrong forum. Could someone please direct me to rehab edge?
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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
Mark Twain
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 17, 2008 1:39:40 PM
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SJBird55
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Bas, you definitely have a point about the Catholic Church. You are now discussing more the institution versus Christianity. I definitely hear you on the institution. The Church has issues. The Catholic Church has been responsible for many horrible crimes in its history.
Crevidence, I've tried to explain why I disagree with your statement. I'm sorry you don't see any intelligence in my response. I correlate your statement kind of comparable to this statement... pig farmers are accustomed to the stench of pigs therefore pig farmers are less likely to practice daily personal hygiene activities. (Give me just a a breath of room because I'm going to take away the softness and again create a stronger generalization: Christians tolerate lack of evidence and are able to believe Virgin births and Resurrections therefore they are more likely to have a greater tolerance for unproven interventions such as a FRS lumbar segment.) I honestly do not think that it is reasonable to assume that one's religious affiliation hampers our profession. Apathy should be where your concern should lie.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 17, 2008 4:58:10 PM
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Crevidence
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A more accurate comparison would be,
Pig farmers have difficulty perceiving the stench of pigs therefore they may have more difficulty perceiving the stench of cows.
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 17, 2008 5:24:54 PM
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TexasOrtho
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My analogy could totally kick your analogy's ass.
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- May 17, 2008 5:29:29 PM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 18, 2008 3:14:15 PM
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proud
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Strange thread. Read it. Agree 100% with Crev.....
Always respect SJ...in fact look for SJ's response on any topic around here. But Crev HAD and HAS a legit point and I saw no disrespect in the comments.
Simple.
< Message edited by proud -- May 18, 2008 4:56:50 PM >
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RE: Self-policing opportunity - May 18, 2008 4:05:51 PM
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TexasOrtho
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Beauty of this thing we call the internet...we're all entitled to an opinion.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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