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RE: Total Motion Release
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 8:00:42 PM
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proud
Posts: 921
Joined: March 22, 2006
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SJ,
Tom is not interested in discussion. And it is not admirable that he wants opposing perspective.
Tom, is here to lure a few guillible readers of this webpage. If he can hookmouth a few into discussion....he wins.
Ignore the tomfoolery.....
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 10:18:34 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 476
Joined: December 22, 2007
Status: offline
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I think it's ok to post it, but it will need to meet two important and related criteria for use in the clinic: evidence and endurance. It will need to be supported in the literature AND need to survive long enough not to be a passing fad. I don't mind being the last on the train, but I want to be on the right train.
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 7:05:34 AM
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rwillcott
Posts: 399
Joined: March 20, 2006
From: Canada
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Still at the top of the list I see. Move on people!
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 7:24:14 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2363
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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I would like to hear Tom's perspective. The only way one learns about others is to communicate. Tom hasn't personally attacked OR done anything that indicates he should be brushed aside. It really is uncalled for to be rude at this point.
In my opinion, yes, Tom may be doing a marketing thing. You know what else I read though - a plea. He's asking for help. He has admitted the weakness with his approach; he agrees research is needed. I believe the reason he wants someone to "try it," especially here, is because he needs research and thinks we might be capable of doing it. He wants research to be done, isn't able to begin it and has no time to do it. So, he's rubbed you the wrong way. Don't read this thread.
I'd like to hear more because I have my own curiosity. If Tom can get therapists to attend his seminars and use his approach with no research to support the approach, how's he doing that? We have excellent research out there for a variety of subgrouped patients and physical therapists aren't implementing evidence into practice. We have too much variability in our profession. Yes, Tom's approach is adding to the variability. The variability that is out there is because of people like Tom. Evidence based practitioners and educators need to learn from what Tom and others are doing to get the research supported approaches/interventions into mainstream physical therapy services. There is something about the big general population of physical therapists that is swayed to the marketing approaches of TMR, MFR, PPRT or whatever that one was. I can tell you one thing I noticed - Tom tells stories. People like stories. Stories engage an audience. That is a tactic that is used with large organizations like the American Cancer Society. I don't have to agree with Tom... I don't have to agree with his approach... I don't have to implement his approach... I'm not a "buyer" and I have no interest. I am interested in how Tom hooks those that attend the seminars and I will be interested in any research findings.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 9:33:49 AM
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tomdalonzobaker
Posts: 14
Joined: August 14, 2006
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SJbird,
I appreciate the discussion back and forth. I don't mind sitting in the line of fire. It teaches me a lot. I figure we are in the same profession and I want to be able to have each of us sit on the same side of the table to help advance what we do. If I invalidate your view point and you invalidate my view point where does that get us? If I accept your viewpoint as having truths and you accept my viewpoint as having truths, then we can help each other out. If we keep playing tug of war between ourselves then we don't help each other get anywhere. So I look at the discussion as a help not a hinderance.
I would like to summarize the post up to this point so as to make sure I am understanding from your viewpoint.
The difference here is the order - it is important for you to have PUBLISHED research first then the PRODUCT. I have brought the PRODUCT to the market before PUBLISHED research. This is a sticking point for you and the others who have posted, because the order I chose for bringing TMR to the market is not the one seen as the most reasonable from your view point. It brings a "taste" of money being the driving force. Also your other concern for the profession is that when it is done in this order it dilutes the profession rather than enhances it and may open the door for attorneys suing a therapist if something REALLY where to go wrong. Am I doing a good job summarizing the view point here? I hope I am.
From my view point I hope you recognize that bringing a product to market first does not have to equate to trying to pull a sham on the profession. It is not easy to bring TMR or any new idea to the profession. And I view the criticism as needed to see if the product/service stands the test of time to what is being argued. Too me the struggle is actually part of strengthening the product. It should actually become a better system because of the differing viewpoints and criticism - and TMR is.
Take McKenzie for example. It is my understanding he brought his technique to the market first and tried considerably to get physicians to see what he was saying was valid. It took time, results and lots of presentations (convincing of MDs) prior to getting someone to take him up on validating what it was he was doing. Wasn't the MD who did the first research also the one that opposed him the most. You could not have a better controlled setting than that for research. One who said it was not going to work and the other that said it would. He fought a long battle against the norm of Williams flexion. It is his process of bringing his product to market and his thoroughness that I want TMR to follow. I admire how he really crossed his Ts and dotted his i's.
Others have also brought service products to the market prior to the research. It is not easy to get research done. Brian Mulligan brought his technique to the market prior to the research. These are just two direct technique examples.
On the side of indirect techniques, techniques like strain-counterstrain also was brought to the market prior to research. Lawrence Jones was pretty much unaccepted by his profession for a very long time. And to this day Lawrence Jone's technique many would still argue against the research. And people opposed to Cranial-Sacral already have a field day with the reseach that has been done.
So where do we go from here? We each have our strengths. Mine are teaching, creating & refining, others are enhancing that which is created, others is being the worker bees that enjoy using the product, and others is doing research for that which has been developed.
I cannot do all of it. I realize I need people to help me. I know what I am good at and I try to set up people around me who are good at the other parts. That is where I am at - setting up people to help out. It sounds like your daughter might be a great one to help out. Sounds like she would make sure to tell the world if what she found was garbage. Aren't kids wonderful.
Thanks again for the dialogue.
Tom
< Message edited by tomdalonzobaker -- April 18, 2008 10:02:17 AM >
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 10:10:09 AM
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tomdalonzobaker
Posts: 14
Joined: August 14, 2006
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SJbird,
Thanks for the post before the previous one that I just wrote. I didn't know there was a second page to the postings so the last one I read before my last post was the one that finished about your daughter. Thank you for recognizing my asking for help and talking from my view point. It means a lot.
I have been a child-custody mediator for divorce cases. My wife who is an attorney got me involved in this. I came to recognize in these mediations that before any progress was made, about 45 minutes to 1 hour and 15minutes a lot of attacking words occurred. Then something happened - one person began solving one issue instead of attacking. They dropped the tug of war rope and suddenly the whole tone of the conversation changed. It was a wonderful thing to be part of. I saw many parents who were divorcing see the importance of seeing the others view point as also having truths.
SJbird I want to say thanks for helping get this post to that point.
I really do want to use what I learn from each of you and improve my site, improve my technique and take it where I alone could not take it. The part that I need help with at this moment is more research. Having people who are willing to do this. If DPT students are reading this and happen to be near one of my seminars please give me a call and lets work something out. If any professors are reading this and are near one of the seminars again contact me and lets see if we can get out some published research. I have some wonderful projects that your students would probably just love.
Thanks again.
Tom
< Message edited by tomdalonzobaker -- April 18, 2008 10:16:24 AM >
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 10:44:10 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1155
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Tom , you need to consider FIRST what actually is happening in the human you are performing TMR on. You need to have a workong hypothesis that ustilizes present knowledge of neurophysiology, neuroanatomy and such. It has to be plausible, should NOT require a "completely new" concept in therapy (it never ends up being "new"). My bet is that you will find it is just another way to engage a human nervous system and its attached brain and expectations. Nice, but not necessarily a reason to get a course for me...
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 1:16:54 PM
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TexasOrtho
Posts: 476
Joined: December 22, 2007
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RW...Tom isn't a troll and you, ironically, are bumping the thread by telling us to move on. Chill mate...nothing wrong with productive discussion. Just like SJ, I'm not buying into Tom's ideas until he's put them throught he hopper of peer-reviewed scrutiny many times over. There are more fads than facts out there right now and the odds certainly aren't in his favor. However to improve his odds, he'll need to do more than market.
Tom, I don't have a problem with you taking the product to market at this time, but you'll gain much more of an audience through my suggestions. I'm trying to help you make more money in the long run and I won't even ask for a percentage!
< Message edited by TexasOrtho -- April 18, 2008 1:19:25 PM >
_____________________________
Rod Henderson, PT
Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist (or Super-Freak)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist
www.texasorthopedics.blogspot.com
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 1:49:10 PM
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orthotherapist
Posts: 206
Joined: February 6, 2007
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I was not going to enter the discussion but....
McKenzies "discovery" of his system was by chance - he then developed a working hypothesis of why his observations occurred based on knowledge available at the time. Research was tehn done etc etc etc.
May we ask what made you think that TMR would work? Was it a chance discovery - "hey when I moved his right arm his left arm is suddenly better" (perhaps you had had a late night, accidently started to treat the wrong side of a patient the next morning and the patient sayed "you healed me, how did you do that")
Anyway McKenzies chance discovery was able to be explained in a plausible way using what was known - yours has no basis at present
Show us (thru research) that your system works until then you are shouting that the earth is flat when it is really round. (no one will believe you until you can prove it to them).
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 2:38:42 PM
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jesspt
Posts: 79
Joined: April 3, 2007
From: Illinois
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Tom,
I'm not sure you've really captured the underlying issue that many have with your approach. I think that Sabastian and I are on the same page, and I'd go so far as to assume that many other posters would echo my sentiments. My problem is not that you've presented things "out of order." I take issue with the fact that you do not present any sound theory as to the mechanism behind your intervention. I wouldn't mind if you put the product out there without outcome studies if you had a good theoretical basis behind your argument. You actually compare your treatment with Strain Counter-Strain and Craniosacral therapy, two treatment approaches with some seriously flawed theory behind them - garbage treatment approaches in my opinion.
If your treatment approach is going to rise above the craniosacral, strain counterstrain, myofascial release types of flawed interventions, your going to have to at least bring theory or outcomes, preferably both.
_____________________________
Jess Brown, PT
Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 3:08:37 PM
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Kaden
Posts: 290
Joined: June 17, 2007
Status: offline
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Jesspt,
I agree with your take. However, the sad part is that TMR doesn't need to rise above the likes of MFR, SCS, and craniosacral. We know that stuff is a bunch of crap but it continues to be out there and insurances reimburses and plenty of people cash pay for these services.
TMR may need to rise above these other approaches for you and I or many others on this forum to even consider it, but sadly for the PT profession for many it doesn't need to rise to that level of credibility.
Maybe this forum should be asking the question...How do we change this state of affairs and how do we stop folks from calling these seriously flawed techniques (or even worse than seriously flawed - no theory at all) from practicing with the initials, PT.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 18, 2008 3:46:28 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2363
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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I actually have no problem with an approach without a theory IF the outcomes are consistently present for a defined group of patients.
I honestly initially don't care about the hypothetical reasonings that occur. I'm first more interested in the bottom line - what population; how long to respond; how much of a response; how long term of a response? I am more patient with the "why does this approach work?" So much of our research is quantitative in nature and qualitative research is almost non-existent. We aren't receiving what I'd think of as balanced information when it comes to published research.
Tom, I've always been interested in research. I'm just not at the right location to implement TMR. I made a mental decision back when I opened the clinic that I wouldn't do any "experimental" interventions on paying patients. I drew a line in the sand and I'm not going to cross it. At this point in time, from a business perspective, I'm not at a point to knowingly provide free interventions.
Have you thought about how you present yourself and your idea to those in a position to undertake a research project? I'll be candid - our daughter did say it well. She picked up on something... the videos may not be helpful if your ultimate goal is to have assistance with finding anyone interested. Think about it.. what do we tell our kids about online chatting? What happens sometimes when an online boyfriend meets his online girlfriend? People lie online. Videos - well, I can fake elevating my extremity only to 50 degrees to then be able to move it to 180 degrees. My daughter and I only watched 2 partial videos. In all honesty, my impression was how do I know that this isn't all set up and fabricated?
I hear your pain. I'm sure you're very frustrated. Sometimes when it comes to what you want, you have to prove how vested you are in the project. Even though you don't have the time or inclination, you might actually need to take some of that first step on your shoulders - show where you are at - show what you have found out thus far - show where you need the assistance and make the ask.
I know that what I see on your website doesn't impress me in the least. I now know from hearing your perspective that you're doing the best you can and you do want to move forward and you do want more than just testimonials. The piece of advice I can give you is to be honest. This whole thread began with what felt like a big marketing ploy and that was a big turnoff.
So, what did happen with the research that was going to be published in 2007?
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 21, 2008 12:52:34 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
Posts: 14
Joined: August 14, 2006
Status: offline
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I appreciate the candid responses as of late. And thanks for more people chiming in. It is nice to get the view points of several people.
Here are my needs for explaining TMR. Can anyone help out with possible research they have seen?
- Cross over or cross training of muscles on the opposite side of the body.
- Shortening of tissue (contraction) to facilitate muscle spasm release instead of the norm of stretching. Some of the eccentric/concentric studies help explain this. If you know of studies you like let me know.
- Cross over or cross training research that looks at how lower body recruitment affects upper limb recruitment. (this is what would explain TMR the most, however, I have yet to see Neuro Cross over studies for more than either agonist/antogonist, or perhaps left side versus right side. This works if we are talking just one dimension. For example, if I cut you with a sword between your eyes then the opposite of the left side is the right side, however if I cut you in a 2nd dimension such as horizontally at the belly button then the opposite of the left shoulder is the left hip. This is not addressed in the research that I have found. It is prevelant in acupuncture meridian lines, yet little research I know about I have seen explaining this. If you know studies similar to this let me know. PNF research may be an ok starting point???
- Tom Myers of Anatomy Trains does a good job explaining the possible pulls that occur throughout the body and how something in the lower extremity effects all the way of the chain, but again it doesn't do the cross over of such.
- I am looking for studies that show left quad effects right quad. Also quads or hamstrings or hip muscles affecting upper extremity balance. A lady at my seminar this weekend, believes her husband when back in college has done some of this research and she is trying to get a reference for me.
Here are my needs for the Website. If you like editing or de-hyping stuff let me know.
- If this was your website - think about what the end product you would want it to look like. Now work backwards from that and tell me what you think could be done in place of what is currently there. If you think a video could have the feel of being "doctored" or untruthful what might you do to make it "real." If you want research presented how would you want it presented. If I have chosen words that are too much hype, how would you have that sentence or paragraph read. As I have more of this info, videos, and research I will be sure to make the appropriate changes.
You all have got me now more focused on making sure I add things not only to my presentations at the seminar about what current research might help explain TMR, but also keeping an eye on more relevant research as it comes available, and of course direct research on TMR. And this entire discussion has me thinking more from the viewpoint that many of you share. As I go forward with TMR I hope I better communicate and answer those questions that you all have posed.
SJbird - those 3 DPT students I mentioned in 2007 are graduating this year. They should have those projects either completed or almost completed depending upon their dissertation review committee. I don't know if they graduate in May or August. I'll check in with their advisor today. I'll keep you posted.
Cheers!
Tom
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 21, 2008 10:51:11 PM
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maddenpt
Posts: 3
Joined: April 21, 2008
Status: offline
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Tom:
Back up the claim. Why not hire a PT Aide/PTA to research outcomes on the past 100 or so LBP/shoulder or other dx patients you have treated?
I don't fully support the way you are going about things...using physician and patient language to talk with PTs. If you are going to talk to PTs (especially those who are skeptical of everything secondary to tons of false promises from other systems)...why not use the language?
I believe you should contact Shaun and review your Non-Existence and Danger formulas...
Matthew 21:22
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 21, 2008 11:28:07 PM
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kamryn
Posts: 27
Joined: February 23, 2008
Status: offline
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Tom - why not take some of the time it will take you in the future to put together these diatribes on TMR and put your effort toward writing a nice case series or case study - the instructions to authors for JOSPT and the PT Journal are below - I'll bet that the readers of those journals would like to read about your work in a forum that is peer-reviewed.
For some reason, I don't have a whole lot of confidence in your research study being carried out by the DPT students you spoke of. Good luck.
http://www.jospt.org/aboutus/for_authors.asp
http://www.ptjournal.org/misc/ifora.dtl
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 22, 2008 2:28:51 PM
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jesspt
Posts: 79
Joined: April 3, 2007
From: Illinois
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Tom:
I've gotta say it: I don't want to do your work for you. You state your needs re: current research to support your treatment approach. In my opinion, this should have been done way before you began marketing and presenting your tretment approach.
I think you're asking a lot when you're asking for assistance regarding literature reviews, etc from clinicians who won't see a dime from the profits you stand to make from your course.
I would echo Kamryn's statements above.
_____________________________
Jess Brown, PT
Board Certified in Orthopaedic Physical Therapy
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 22, 2008 11:01:41 PM
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maddenpt
Posts: 3
Joined: April 21, 2008
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As an outside source (not affiliated with Tom or TMR)...it works well in the clinic...especially for shoulder and hip pathologies. We have had a few amazing outcomes (frozen shoulder at 80 degrees of abduction to 155 degrees in the same visit). And the patients have been happy.
It hasn't been amazing for every single patient...but it works often.
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