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Total Motion Release
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Total Motion Release - April 16, 2008 11:17:00 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
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I just wanted to let everyone know that there is a new website with videos demonstrating the technique called Total Motion Release. I know in previous posts people had wanted to see what Total Motion Release was and how treating the good areas of the body could fix the bad areas of the body. That previous post had a lot of heated exchanges back and forth and I just wanted to give you some concrete ways for you to try TMR for yourself and come to your own conclusions as to its effectiveness. It has been a wonderful system for so many.
You can go to www.totalmotionrelease.com and view several videos that you can see results on patients and can even get a good idea about how to try some of the material on patients.
Currently Total Motion Release is being used in a variety of settings in PT. They include Outpatient Physical Therapy, Sports Rehab, Home Health, Geriatrics, Pediatrics, Acute Care, and stroke rehab.
I hope you enjoy the website and let me know if there are other videos you would like to see. I hope you enjoy the website and let me know if there are other videos you would like to see.
Tom Dalonzo-Baker, MPT
founder of TMR
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 6:05:39 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
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From: Michigan
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Hi Tom, hope you're up for a meat and potatoes discussion. "Try it for yourself" and "come to your own conclusions" are definitely NOT my interests. You're freely putting in a plug for yourself and your technique - nice business/marketing... but frankly, show me the evidence. Last I knew all you had was lots of testimonials. Now you've got videos.
Could you answer these questions? These questions are excellent for discussion. Are there any peer reviewed journals, randomized controlled trials or case studies? How effective is it compared to other clinical options? How long is it effective? How would your approach actually lead to effectiveness? Is it all placebo? What patient population responds?
Videos really won't sway my thinking. What other new information do you have?
(Edited out sarcasm because no one can read my tone.)
< Message edited by SJBird55 -- April 17, 2008 6:11:13 AM >
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 6:23:12 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1191
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From: Barrie, Canada
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Tom, what is the difference between TMR and MFR?
_____________________________
Mundi vult decipi
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 7:46:52 AM
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rwillcott
Posts: 427
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From: Canada
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I think most would agree that this is not worth discussing on an evidence based forum.
Clearly Tom is simply marketing the product and would like to see this topic at the top of the list. If you don't agree with TMR then don't respond so that it will fade away to the bottom of the list. That way we can focus on more evidence based topics which is the main reason we are here.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 8:04:26 AM
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SJBird55
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From: Michigan
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I figured I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. From the last thread a year or so ago, he alluded to a study to be published in late 2007. I haven't seen anything published yet... didn't see a study on his website... I was curious as to the update on the research front. He didn't entertain any evidence related questions back when he first joined and I am interested in whether he has anything new to share. If he has nothing new, well, I agree... only a marketing ploy.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 9:07:46 AM
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JSPT
Posts: 282
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From: Michigan
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(*Deep Breath*). Tom: Can you provide anything other than anecdotal evidence and generic marketing tactics for us to discuss? Consider the following, inserting any of hundreds of "revolutionary new techniques":
My system of (TMR, crystal healing, brainstem manipulation, MFR, Primal Scream Therapy, Iridology, homeopathy cures, chelation therapy, etc, etc, etc.)....
"Sounds too good to be true? As hard as it may be to believe, it absolutely is true. Look around the website and watch the videos and you will discover this is uniquely different from anything else you have ever tried. This works! "
Here are the red flags that jump out at me from your website:
1. Generic statements promising that the technique is unbelievable, but true (see above)
2. The technique can be applied to any/all therapy settings:
TMR is being used in the following settings & on the following conditions:
1. Outpatient Orthopedics (Spine, Muscle & Joint Issues, Pre & Post Surgery)
2. Home Health & Geriatrics (Balance, Gait, Conditioning)
3. Sports Rehab (athletes - prevention and quicker return to function)
4. Pediatrics (Cerebral Palsy)
5. Stroke Rehab & Skilled Nursing
6. Acute Care (Stroke, Multiple Traumas, Brain Injury, even coma patients)
7. Vestibular Rehab
8. Lymphodema
9. Incontinence
3. The technique can be applied to any discipline, and presumably across many educational backgrounds: This program can be approved for Occupational Therapists, Chiropractors, Massage Therapists, Personal Trainers and Physicians depending upon your states continuing education requirements.
4. The lone rebel who makes a discovery that turns "the establishment" on its ear, without the research necessary to back the statement up: Once you learn the simple concept behind Total Motion Release you too will see how crazy and counterproductive it is to ever treat the bad area again!
5. Implying that if this technique is not readily apparent to you, you just don't get it. In addition, implying that one is in the dark and has been missing the huge elephant in the room if they haven't been using this for years: What I have to show you will ruffle some feathers. I will be nudging and pressing on some very long standing protocols and belief patterns. Fortunately, after watching the videos it will be hard to deny what you see. As a therapist or trainer you have only been looking at half the picture.
I found those in 5 minutes, and there are some indications that this is a moderately-well marketed and packaged product.
You have provided no reason for me to think your system is any more than that. To quote Carl Sagan: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
When marketing your system to a professional, evidence-based group of people, don't bother with the claims if you can't provide some evidence.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 10:05:37 AM
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tomdalonzobaker
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SJbird - I would be happy for some meat and potato discussion. I know pretty much anything I say will be up for dissection. I would like to break up the discussion between evidence and research. As for research - we have three DPT grads doing case study research in Tennessee. I have lots of projects that I want researched and I am working on the local Universities for doing some of this.
SJBird, I would love it if with your research interests you would do some research on TMR. It would be great to hear from someone who goes into the research with high skepticism to come out and let other therapists know their findings. In fact, I would prefer it this way.
As for evidence, we are very scientific in both data collecting and recording of this data. In fact, our forms collect data in a very detailed format so that the data allows the therapist and patient to determine what to do from the numbers. I have not seen any other techniques that use as detailed forms as we have, Mckenzie is probably the closest in comparison. Because of this obsessive data collecting that is done after EVERY set of exercises or EACH time one technique cycle is performed, we can determine whether to continue with the technique/exercise or if it is more important to move forward. The evidence is displayed in the numbers. The evidence is either positive, negative, or inconclusive. Based on this info decisions are made. I don't like to be led by my gut I like to be lead by my findings.
With this said, most of the time when I ask therapists in the seminars to tell me how they collect data it is very spotty at best. When I ask them how they know to determine if their technique is working or whether it is better to move forward, again there response is often vague into their own understanding and rarely is any of this written down. Most rack it up to experience, or I just know, or they get worse, or it feels like it is as good as it gets. When I ask them how do you know this, by what are you comparing it to they have a hard time asking. They don't collect data. It is all stored in their heads and decisions are being made by their "intuition, gut, response of patient, or experience." And there isn't necessarily anything wrong with this, but so much more can be learned. Patterns can start being established both for that patient as an individual and patient conditions in general. The concept I talk about rib cage and thoracic spine related to ankle injuries or hip external rotation restriction causing shoulder problems is all due to a tremendous effort on my part to use data to find patterns.
The recording on my forms is kind of like doing those experiments you did in 7th grade where they made you write in that black bound graph paper note book and every step you took was recorded. Fortunately, we have developed a form that makes the data collecting quick and easy and patterns causing the patients pain can be seen using it. The TMR Video Package on the website this entire process is outlined. I know I am going to hear it now that this line is in their to push my products and make money. SJbird - I would be happy to send you a copy for free if you would review it, perform it on at least 10 patients, give it an unbiased effort and report back to us your findings.
I really love the underlying principles of evidence and research - data collecting and then using those numbers to determine what to do next. I believe if one person can achieve results then the process should be that anyone should be able to achieve those results. Including the patient. My education with Mckenzie, Maitland, and Ola Grimbsy trained me to do a technique until you no longer are seeing a result. Continue until . . . . Collect data until it tells you something . . . . then do it until it no longer is improving, and then collect more data.
With this said - I would bet that I probably collect more data and record more of my findings than most therapists. If I read one of your daily notes would I be able to extrapolate from what I see and determine the patterns that are causing their pain? And will this data let me know what to do next? Will it let me know when you just did the last technique 5 minutes ago if it was better than the set you did before it or the ones you do after it? Are you organized in your record keeping? Can you show patients your forms and they can tell you the patterns that cause their problems?
I think you can tell by now - I like data and all of what I do lends itself nicely to research. The research part, as it does lags behind the clinical evidence. There is a wonderful book called Probst - the NeuroScientist. He talks about how the Art of a Science often times takes years even centuries before the proof of why it works is known.
I began the videos to allow others to see the possibilities of what TREATING THE NON-INJURED AREAS of the body does to the INJURED AREAS. This is phenomenon that you have to witness to begin to wrap your mind around it. Lets face it, the concept of treating the good side leads to a lot of skepticism seeing that most of us have been treating the area of pain our entire career. Because this pattern of treating the injured side is so ingrained in our profession, I feel videos is a quick way to begin showing the opposite approach. If you told me 7 years ago to treat the opposite side of pain, I too would look at you as if you had two head. If you then showed me it working on several patients, it would force me to perhaps reconsider the possibilities. That is what I want the videos to do. To perhaps make people reconsider the possibilities.
And yes it "appears" to go against so many of the ingrained techniques we use as therapists, yet what it actually does is complements other technique very well. It offers another dimension. You can do joint mobs to the good side, exercise to the good side, manipulate to the good side, do Mckenzie Extensions to the good side, help a stroke patient by doing more of the good side, and even reduce lymphodema at a faster pace. As with anything - Total Motion Release needs to be practiced to be good at and to master, but the simplicity of it allows itself to even be practiced by patients and have great results.
OK - I have rambled on considerably. Take a look at the videos. Do they make you wonder even just a little bit as to if this concept might have some importance in what we do?
Tom Dalonzo-Baker, MPT
Founder of TMR
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 10:14:18 AM
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tomdalonzobaker
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JSPT - I agree with so much that you say. What is it about 7% of what is said in marketing is believed. And it is because of general statements, even like the ones on my site.
I am making an effort to remove this stuff from my website, and with your help can make the website read not like a TMR is the BEST thing since sliced bread, but as a place that is neutral and unbiased in its presentation. A website that just shares my findings and results without marketing hype.
I need people like you willing to speak out so that I can make this a website one of information not one of INFOmercial. Can you email me other suggestions. I will work today to remove as much of that material as possible. If you could provide me your email so I can ask for your suggestions and your comments after I have updated the sight that would be great.
Thanks again,
Tom Dalonzo-Baker, MPT
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 11:19:22 AM
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SJBird55
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From: Michigan
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Tom, it's great that you are into data collection. The deal is that the data needs to be analyzed on a greater level than each individual patient and the outcomes need to be determined. Your data that you collect to use to make clinical decisions might not necessarily be the same as outcome data. It sounds to me that the data you collect and use assists with your clinical decision-making, which is good, but how does it allow you to analyze or determine your effectiveness? Are you using measures other than your own biased approach to determine that functional outcomes occur?
I have a reputation in my local area as being honest. I'll be bluntly honest with you, Tom. No, I'm not interested in you mailing anything to me. (I don't fall prey to ego-stroking tactics, which is how I'm interpreting some of your post to me.) To be frank, I get enough TMR emails in my junk mail box. I'm literally pelted with TMR stuff that I don't want and never requested. You're doing a great job with your marketing tenacity. Your marketing approach parallels the "up the wazoo" postcards I get and the numerous phone calls, emails and snail mail I receive from Ingenix.
What I want is something that helps me decide that what I am doing isn't effective enough and that there IS something better. I collect data too... I know my outcomes... and I use that information not only on a patient per patient basis, but also to analyze my effectiveness AND I compare my typical, non-risk adjusted results with peer reviewed literature. Why would I risk my reputation and my current performance and outcome measures with no data to support that I need to jump into TMR? Why would I choose to lose money over a research interest? It would be wrong for me to provide a service with unknown outcomes to patients. How would it sound being bluntly honest to patients? "Tom says I need to try this and see. He has all these videos... crazy that if I treat your uninvolved side that your complaint just goes away. AND, he's got this intensive data collection process so I just can't go wrong with the patterns I have you perform! What do you say? Give it a go?" Tom, I can't do that - I have patients paying $15/visit on up to $20/visit, they want to know and trust that they will improve and I won't be scamming them. I refuse to stoop to that level of service. And, just to let you know, suggesting I try whatever you send me on 10 patients even that request sets off red flags... which patients? ALL patients? Current research really does indicate that subgrouping patients leads to more effective results. Who are candidates that respond to your approach when assessing reduced pain and increasing function?
Since this is your baby and your passion, why aren't you doing the research work?
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 12:38:58 PM
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steve
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From: Canada
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JSPT,
I'm thinking of printing your post and framing it in my office! Since we get a post like this every few months with someone trying to sell us the "Answer" to treating all patients you should just cut and paste that post.
Steve
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 12:42:25 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
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SJbird,
First I like your honesty. You truth is your truth and I can only learn from it. Sorry for the reaction that I am ego-stoking. Often the exchanges on forums get too heated and I learn more not from reacting with arguments, but with conversation.
I have one goal in mind here when I write. To get you to give TMR a try. To expose more people to TMR. To give TMR a try prior to research because it the research is not there yet.
Again - you are getting into a very long story when you ask me about why hasn't research been done. I recognize the importance of research. In fact, I have some wonderful ideas for projects. TMR lends itself quite well for research.
I will try to be as brief as possible. I have run into obstacles trying to get research done. The first response will be why do I not do this myself. I have the time to lead some research, but not the time in the details of doing the actual work & number crunching. I am too busy. Some would mention research should be done prior to the getting the product out to market, but that depends. I have learned a lot going down this road. I never intended to be in this position of bringing a concept to the market. I found out I need exposure and be "known" and then people would be more apt to listen.
Early on I had talked with professors at universities and been turned down with them doing research for me because they need me to have research before they will do more, or they do not want to appear like they endorse a technique. I have sent letters to schools up and down the east coast to get help from DPT students for TMR. Offered free seminars so they could learn more. I have had several interested, but seminar location and dates just did not coincide.
I keep plugging away though. Because TMR has now been marketed to the masses I have a little bit more exposure and I will again be going back to area schools and offering to do free presentations. I expect this will get me a foot in the door to getting more research done. I live in Raleigh, NC and Duke, ECU, and UNC-Chapel Hill and Elon University are all within 1 1/2 hours from me.
We also are a clinical instructor site and this has been a great way to get in with schools. However, the students who have come through our doors so far had more of projects to accomplish for their DPT rather than research.
Additionally, I looked at grant opportunities. This way it would help financially and allow me to pull away from my companies a little and put the time necessary in to doing research. I have a college buddy who is a grant writer at Wright University in Ohio (they are funded by NIH on one of the longest running health studies in the US) and he said I will need some smaller scaled research completed that can be referenced prior to applying for a grant to do a larger project.
As you can begin to tell - planning for and doing research is another job in itself. Another time and financial restraint. I wish I was a professor and had students that needed to complete research. And this is not too far fetched. Formerly I was a teacher and have seriously considered returning to school for a PhD in human movement sciences so that one day I can be at the university level and do my own research. I have 4 kids and financially returning to school is not the optimal situation
My ideal situation or the way I envision what I will be doing in 20 years would be this. My clinic is operating on its own and being profitable, the majority of my seminars are being taught by qualified instructors, I teach maybe one a month, and the rest of my time is leading research projects, teaching college students and playing with my grandkids.
So when people comment about research, I wish I could have the research already done. At this time, I have not figured out a way to get it done expediently that does not put a financial strain or time strain on me. It too is a process and I am trying to follow it the best I can. I wish I could say I loved doing research and it was one of my passions, but if it was I probably would already be a university professor.
As a business person, a clinician and a family man there is so much more to doing this than I ever thought and I am on a different track of needs than perhaps yourself and others. I know there are a ton of people like yourself who would like to see the research first, then the seminars, but TMR is not going to be able to provide that scenario.
If you happen to have contacts of people at PT schools and don't mind sharing them please let me know. Or if you know people who love research and want to look into what I can offer, I would love to hear from them.
Tom
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 12:44:55 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
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JSPT - I have almost finished the first page of the website. Would you take a look and see if it reads better and without the hype. I have not finished the last part about what settings TMR works in.
Tom
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 1:02:19 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
Posts: 13
Joined: August 14, 2006
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SJbird,
In response to trying out something new on your patients, I understand. You have developed a process that gets you the best responses from your patients and varying from it would alter your results.
Can you take a look at the other "red flags" you see on my website. Give me the weekend to fix it up and then check it out. The help would be appreciated. The best advice I can receive is not from people who think like me, but those that think differently.
As for the subgrouping of patients and the way I mentioned all patients, I will change that too because I would much rather treat a group of knee patients and a group of back patients, and a group of fibro patients as a subgroup. Much easier to relate to them and for them to relate to each other and to show data results of relevance. And believe it or not, subgrouping (or niche) is also the best way to market.
I do appreciate all the responses. Give me a couple days reworking the website and let me know what you think.
Tom
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 2:43:00 PM
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bonez
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Joined: August 29, 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomdalonzobaker
As a business person, a clinician and a family man there is so much more to doing this than I ever thought and I am on a different track of needs than perhaps yourself and others. I know there are a ton of people like yourself who would like to see the research first, then the seminars, but TMR is not going to be able to provide that scenario.
I think that this paragraph has all the info you need. This is a business pure and simple.
But if you know the legal profession I think that they will have a field day with the concept of treat the area that is not the problem. When that one case comes along and it goes REALLY wrong and there is a problem with no evidence to say that this is a good clinical care they will see Dollar signs!!!!
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 3:13:24 PM
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JSPT
Posts: 282
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From: Michigan
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I want to make sure I have this right:
1. You somehow discovered/developed a treatment system without doing research. It may be fair to compare this to a car mechanic discovering a new fueling system for a car without first gaining an intimate understanding of how a fuel system works, how hydrocarbons are turned into energy, etc. The mechanic simply put a liquid in a car and it started right up. He then thinks to himself, "Well, that was cool. Forget how it works, I better start selling this stuff!" (No, I'm not discounting your PT education)
2. You developed this astounding system which treats an enormous variety of problems. You then said to some marketing individual/PR firm "here is my humble discovery. Please make me a website". The marketing entity then proceeded to slap on a bunch of statements and arguments that are virtually universal symptoms of a marketing scheme, all without your consent or awareness.
3. You didn't notice the problems with the substantial amount of information on your site until I pointed them out this morning. If your website consisted of 1 or 2 pages with some very basic information, I may buy that. I would have even accepted the argument that you were so excited to get the word out, you dashed out a few quick pages and threw them on the net without considering how your statements may be interpreted. Tom, you have 12 pages, video, pictures, and the sparkle of lots of time spent on your site.
4. You are asking me, a person whom you have never met and don't truly know the qualifications of, to help you fix the website which bears your name and image.
Please keep in mind that I am willing to believe in, or be convinced of, anything, so long as the arguments are sufficiently compelling. That being said, here is my advice:
Run your ideas through the scientific process: hypothesize, experiment, report results, have others validate your findings, and only then sell your product.
You may also read through the sites identified as pseudoscience by quackwatch.com. In general, don't use any of the tactics that those sites employ.
I'll be interested to read the changes you make to your site.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 3:41:40 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
Posts: 13
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Bonez,
TMR Seminars is a business as is my clinic. As you are in the business to provide care to your patients. Without the business aspect neither the place you work or our profession would exist. If I am missing your point please explain. If you mean, I am here to simply make a dollar and provide nothing to our profession then that is entirely wrong. I cannot prove this in any post. I have spent thousands of hours bringing what I feel is an important aspect to our profession. I do not make apologies for something I have found passion in pursuing. I know research has to be done, and it will be done, but right now we do not have anything with TMR itself being that which has been studied.
Your point about the legal profession having a field day with that case that REALLY goes wrong can happen. Be it TMR or anything we do. And if there is any importance about research this is probably where it stands the best reasoning. The more we have to aid ourselves for what we do, and it being well documented, the stronger our case will be. This goes for both TMR and our profession. The DPT was created so we could start receiving federal grants to study the efficacy of our profession. I want TMR to be part of those studies.
Any suggestions on speeding up research or getting people involved I would be interested in hearing more about.
Several of the posts have led to the assumption that if no research, then it must be about the dollar signs. I am probably partly to blame for this because of the "hype" wording on my website. I am learning how to better communicate without the use of "extraordinary" language. Other therapists giving me their suggestions and this forum have helped me further understand how to do this.
I am uncertain how to respond to the idea that my pursuit is about the almighty dollar more than helping people. My wife would beg to differ with you given the limited budget we live off of since starting my practice in 1999. I think any person running a small business would agree, if it was so easy to make money, we all would be doing it. Probably only us crazy ones take up such a task.
Tom Dalonzo-Baker, MPT
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 4:02:35 PM
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tomdalonzobaker
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JSPT - the research you have been asking for has not been what my processes are or how I developed it or the people I have done this on. I have charts and charts full of information. You are asking for control group studies. I don't have this. My entire process is very scientific. The forms, the books and the videos. It lends itself well into research. I have not however compiled it into the research format you are requiring.
As for the website. Remember people who register for my course probably share some common ideas as I do. They probably are more likely to jump in and try something (much like myself). It is not until I get on these forums that people tell from a different perspective. You made a suggestion and you can see I took your information to heart and have begun toning down the website. I have had one other therapist who worked with me to tone it down. I don't know you from Adam, but as you can tell those of you who also write on this forum share a common tone or common perspective.
As for a PR firm, I do my website on my own. That is why it lacks some of the professionalism.
This one sentence is where our order differs:
"Run your ideas through the scientific process: hypothesize, experiment, report results, have others validate your findings, and only then sell your product." I have done all of the above. TMR could never have been created without it, and it could not have become a process that the patient can learn how to do if I was not able to break it down into a workable system. It just wouldn't work. Even others have validated my findings. The one difference is the studies, the control groups,the "research" put into a research paper and having the numbers crunched has not been done. And I am the first to admit this. You would like this step to be done prior to accepting the product in a deliverable format. It isn't as easy as that to do. See my previoius posts.
Anyways - I again enjoy your suggestions, I cannot make you believe me by my words, but as you can tell I have taken action to implement less hype and produce less red flags. I understand the importance of this. I also understand the importance of research, but that is going to take time. The physical evidence is there, now someone who loves research needs to put it in writing.
Tom
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 6:51:18 PM
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proud
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I agree with rwillcott. Best to ignore people who defend "fringe" treatments without even a shred of ability to do so.
Lordy.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 7:02:01 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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Tom, all I can say about your website is, "Less is more." I may actually have that wrong. It has the feel of trying to hard because there are no meat and potatoes.
Tom, definitely TMR could be created without the scientific process. I can think of a few particular theories/processes/approaches that I'd categorize with TMR. The only evidence available is your biased observation. That's all there is at this point AND testimonials.
bonez does bring up a very valid point. TMR could increase the legal risk because TMR isn't considered a standard level of care. I don't think you concisely or clearly offer a mechanism behind the theory OR any evidence supporting effectiveness that could be used to protect a physical therapist who chose to use TMR.
I am very, very opposed to any type of seminar that alllows any person of any background - massage therapists? personal trainers? occupational therapists? chiropractors? Allowing this waters down the relevance of the material, in my opinion. My impression when I see this allowed is that money is first and foremost.
You had stated quite a while back before you disappeared for months that a study was going to be published in late 2007. What happened with that study? What did the study entail and what happened?
Tom, I give you kudos for speaking up and discussing. Most of the stuff you're going to read here probably isn't going to sit well with you. It is admirable that you are interested in the perspective of those who will be against your perspective.
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RE: Total Motion Release - April 17, 2008 7:39:12 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2432
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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From the mouth of babes.... my 10 year old was watching one of the videos with me, Tom. Would you like to hear what a 10 year old had to say? "They walked in like this and this (kind of demonstrating). Yeah, right... people are gullible." (I didn't even know she knew that word!)
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