RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (Full Version)

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TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 7:47:37 AM)

That was not an unsolicited request Avalon.  It was a response to Di's demand for me to "stay off her threads".  Made me think about the Soundgarden song "My Wave".  Anyway, that's what drew the response that she should pucker up for my posterior.  I don't typically run around sending people PM asking they kiss my butt.  Usually you have to push a few buttons first.  I've been interacting on internet forums for some time, and have never reached that level of discourse with anyone before.



bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 7:49:15 AM)

quote:

.  If you look at the tenor of D & B's statements toward those of different opinions, you'll quickly see how they choose to alienate those who offer dissenting opinion. 
That's ok of course as it's Dorko's website to do with as he pleases. 



Latin just for Bas...kinda fits Rod's statement above ...Asinus asinum fricat



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 7:54:01 AM)

I had to look that up Bob...pretty funny.



avalon -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 8:22:33 AM)

quote:

Asinus asinum fricat


Does that mean you and Rod are donkeys?

Rod,
It seems common, now, that your words are often "under the belt" oriented.



Shill -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 9:38:23 AM)

Jon,
Good to see you are surviving the tough Wisconsin winter. 

I must, however, agree with Rod regarding his impression of how those who might think differently than the dermoneuromodulation folks are indeed belittled during attempts to disagree.  Im not defending anything anyone did, as both were probably wrong while trading barbs and/or PM's...and whatever else.  Regardless, similar impressions and opinions on this issue start to add up towards the idea that there is some shred of truth to these.  Its a fairly big shred, in my humble opinion.  Ive deleted many of my posts before posting them, when I realized I was traveling down this slope of less than professional interactions.  It is also the nature (unfortunately) of internet communication.  It is very unlikely that any belittling would occur if these folks were sitting around a table having a few beers.  Or sodas.  Or milks.

there is actually an ad on TV for cyberbullying, aimed at kids.  The slogan is, "if you wouldnt say it to their face, dont say it on the internet."  Its a nice idea that us supposed grownups should listen to as well. 

Think Spring.



SJBird55 -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 10:42:48 AM)

The disagreements over at SS are turned into personal attacks by the moderators at SS themselves.  If they can read the Medscape user agreement and twist those words to fit their own agenda... if they can read the neuromatrix theory on pain and full heartedly believe in skin stretching or simple contact... if they can read one case study on a patient who fits the manipulation CPR and responds to a flexion based treatment as THE study to debunk manipulation and CPR for manipulation... realize they can and do misinterpret, prod and antagonize anyone who disagrees with their view.  Because they have full control at SS, are very narrowminded and wear blinders that only see what fits in their world, they can squash any threats to their thoughts/beliefs/views.  It's a control issue.  As a group, they do horribly posting their debate/thoughts in a public situation where they have no control to delete, silence or ban others.  Apparently, they like to be the big fish in the small pond. 

Steve, I highly doubt that sitting at a table with a few beers would be productive with some of them (if thinking of joining those that disagree with the SS moderators and the SS moderators themselves).  I'm not sure if belittling would occur, but I could forsee a fight. 



avalon -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 10:51:57 AM)

So spoke the Mess maker!



Jon Newman -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 11:15:45 AM)

quote:

Jon,
Good to see you are surviving the tough Wisconsin winter. 

I must, however, agree with Rod regarding his impression of how those who might think differently than the dermoneuromodulation folks are indeed belittled during attempts to disagree.


Hi Shill,

I get Rod's and your impression.  I do think that ideas get little respect and even belittled.  This likely represents an impatience with dealing with the same arguements over and over.  Ideally, the people presenting ideas are not belittled.  However, ideas and people as targets can quickly get conflated.  When the problem appears to be recalcitrant, action is taken to try to move forward.  Some people appreciate this sort of thing and others don't.  EIM, for example, offers a battle royale venue for those into that sort of thing.  The market for the discussion of ideas will decide what venue it likes better.  I'm personally afraid that I already know the answer to that.  Many folks simply like to see people argue.



Shill -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 12:38:21 PM)

SJ,
I think you are right with the potential for fisticuffs, donnybrooks, melees, bench clearing brawls, coming to blows, tossing paws, pugilistic progression, or knockdown drag-outs at the beer table. 

Jon,
Totally agree.  I also think it is funny how we regress to childhood tactics when we get riled up.  I think when folks start attacking each other, some one should step in with a sharp "I know you are, but what am I", or "my dad can beat up your dad".  Might bring things back into perspective.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:04:04 PM)

"I drop the gloves when someone starts speaking as an authority figure."

Rod, I could NOT help but stop and address this. You, who are sensitive to semantics and the confusion of language interpretation  (if I remember your statement at SS correctly), apparently find "authority" something not good . People who have studied somehting (say, neurophysiology) extensively, can reasonably be called an authority when compared to someone who has not gotten that education. 

The least one can do, is acknowledge the enormous amount of work and study that has gone into accumulating the intertwined science of DNM concepts, and present it free-of-charge to anyone who actually takes the energy and time to read it?  This effort does generate a status of some authority - at least, in my eyes.


Bob, Bob, Bob....:
``"Interesting findings about the stretchability of tissue wth small amounts of force - that alone is supporting the need to touch gently. It does not support much else at this time."

Which is  your belief now... it does or it doesn't or does it depend on the topic at hand.?
Bob``


Bob, my belief is that you have NOT read the article at hand here - NOWHERE does it speak of fascia - it speaks of (careful, direct quote coming): ``flap containing dermis, subcutaneous muscle, and subcutaneous tissue``.

So yes, Bob, it depends whether one is talking about fascia or the whole outer body tissue package in this study.....

Get it....



bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:14:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sebastian Asselbergs

"
Bob, Bob, Bob....:
``"Interesting findings about the stretchability of tissue wth small amounts of force - that alone is supporting the need to touch gently. It does not support much else at this time."

Which is  your belief now... it does or it doesn't or does it depend on the topic at hand.?
Bob``


Bob, my belief is that you have NOT read the article at hand here - NOWHERE does it speak of fascia - it speaks of (careful, direct quote coming): ``flap containing dermis, subcutaneous muscle, and subcutaneous tissue``.

So yes, Bob, it depends whether one is talking about fascia or the whole outer body tissue package in this study.....

Get it....


What surrounds the above mentioned tissue?
Perhaps as the article states.....

The dynamic, cytoskeleton-dependent responses of
fibroblasts to changes in tissue length demonstrated in this study have
important implications for our understanding of normal movement
and posture, as well as therapies using mechanical stimulation of
connective tissue including physical therapy, massage, and acupuncture.
 
 
The primary objective of this study was to characterize the
response of fibroblasts to stretching of loose connective tissue.
Loose connective tissue forms a continuous network throughout
the body, including subcutaneous and interstitial connective
tissues surrounding and permeating muscles and organs.
Therapeutic mechanical deformation of loose connective tissue
is used routinely in physiotherapy (e.g., in stress-relaxation
techniques), as well as in many “alternative” therapies such as
massage, myofascial release, and osteopathic and chiropractic
manipulations.

Connective tissue = fascia does it not?
bob
almost out of latin



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:37:52 PM)

Avalon.  I had no idea you had such a sense of humor.  Well played sir.  It's Mr. Donkey to you... [:D] 

Jon.  Very well put.  I think we passed the point of no return on the other forum with respect to my interactions with D and B.  They regulated as they saw fit.  I think it's better for all involved this way.  I personally prefer a brawl like I've seen on EIM.  The kind of interaction where everyone lays it out on the table, pulls no punches, but then can sit and laugh about it later at the pub.

Sebastian.  Very astute observation.  I enjoy the study of language, particularly the english language.  I'm also picky about the words I choose (eventhough my spellchecking is a little off at times) and hold others, for better or worse, accountable for theirs.  I am truly humbled by the work some folks over here, SS, and EIM have put into their study of physical therapy.  I have never stated otherwise on this or other forums.  In fact I have reiterated this on several occaisions.  Often it's not the idea itself that makes one a tribe or cult, it's how willing or unwilling they are to back away from themselves to consider if someone else may have a salient point.



gerry -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:40:05 PM)

At the risk of this response getting totally lost or not read by the original poster, I do have a few articles that I have collected regarding exercises and scoliosis.  You can also search for "Schroth" and scoliosis for some interesting ideas.

Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).  Studies in Health Technology & Informatics. 123:273-80, 2006

Maruyama T, Kitagawa T, Takeshita K, Mochizuki K, Conservative treatment for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis: can it reduce the incidence of surgical treatment?      Pediatric Rehabilitation 2003; 6 (3–4); 215–219


Weiss HR, Weiss G, Petermann F. Incidence of curvature progression

in idiopathic scoliosis patients  treated with scoliosis inpatient

rehabilitation (SIR): An age- and sex-matched controlled study

Pediatric Rehabilitation 2003; 6(1); 23–30

Hawes, Martha C. (2003) 'The use of exercises in the treatment
of scoliosis: an evidence-based critical review of the literature', Developmental
Neurorehabilitation, 6:3, 171 - 182

Weiss, H. -R. and Klein, R. (2006) 'Improving excellence in
scoliosis rehabilitation: A controlled study of matched pairs', Developmental
Neurorehabilitation, 9:3, 190 - 200

Negrini, Stefano, Antonini, Guido, Carabalona, Roberta and Minozzi, Silvia (2003) 'Physical exercises
as a treatment for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. A systematic review', Developmental Neurorehabilitation, 6:3, 227 - 235



avalon -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:52:49 PM)

quote:

Well played sir. It's Mr. Donkey to you...

Pass.

BTW, Rod, you cheated in the game.



jesspt -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:57:01 PM)

gerry,

Thanks for trying to return this thread back to its original topic.



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 2:01:00 PM)

Gerry I have no idea why you would try to restore this thread back to it's original theme.  Thanks for the articles.  What is the gist?  Does movement alter the progression of a developing curve or is their little effect?  My guess is that it would depend on the severity of the curve and age of the patient.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 2:01:06 PM)

Bob, Bob, Bob....
The fact that the study mentions connective tissue in its conclusion, does not make the results applicable to fascia....
Fact is, Bob, they studied the stretchability of the whole kit and keboodle - this includes all tissues mentioned and thus the results cannot be nicely extrapolated to ONE type only.
The jump from this to the claimed effects of modifying the "liquid crystal that is fascia" (a common MFR claim) is a very LARGE jump.  Without any support. 
Bob, you have just demonstrated the problem with JBMFR: a bit of a factoid interpreted poorly to support MFR.

And Kaden and Gerry (and lurkers): sorry - I will stay off this thread now. And start a new one if the need for response arises...



bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 2:34:27 PM)

Bas
I didn't mention anything about only effecting one tissue...please refrain from typing words in my posts (putting words in my mouth)
thanks.  No need for reply.
end of story.
Thanks for the scoliosis articles...

Bob



gerry -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 3:07:32 PM)

The articles I posted have to do with adolescent idiopathis scoliosis (I think).  I haven't digested them all.  I tend to collect the articles and read and digest slowly.  Also, the articles I posted all have to do with exercise, and no other forms of manual therapy (again, I think).  They seem to indicate some studies show exercises may aid in the slowing or preventing of progression of curves.  The severity of the curves are an important factor, because most minor curves (less than 20 degrees) do not progress into larger curves.  Also, the exercise programs tend to be fairly intensive in time, and compliance is an issue.

Anyway, I look forward to anyone's reviews of these articles. 



PTupdate.com -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 29, 2008 8:41:26 AM)

So SS decided to mute Rod?    I can't find the thread on SS where this discussion occurred, so someone please fill me in.  I can only think of a few instances where such a forum could/should ban someone, and "kiss my arse" certainly is not one of them.



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