RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (Full Version)

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bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 11:29:17 AM)

I agree that one case study a rule does not make.
I just like to see you argue.  The SS people think this is a superb article because it fits there "ectodermal" belief system.  However, If I would post a study based on one individual in support of a MFR technique I would be lambasted due to the small population of study and who funded it.
The point we all see what we choose to see in general.
Jess  I am thrilled you are here as well as everybody else, especially Rod.
His buddy Diane loves this article.
Bob



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 11:52:08 AM)

Yeah I read her post.  Diane acted like she found a Twinkie under her pillow in reading that case study. That's how they roll over there however.  One study even remotely supporting their notions far outweighs the overwhelming evidence otherwise.  It makes for interesting and entertaining reading...I miss them deeply.

I think a study is a study and the informed reader will treat it as such.  That's the beauty of research.  We can all editorialize the data to match our belief systems, but the data itself has no opinion and is pure science. Anecdote and opinion exists on the opposite end of the spectrum.  They are difficult distinctions for the SS.

Just for fun to get some perspective on the evidence surrounding different approaches.  Try these PubMed searches separately:  manual therapy, subluxation, myofascial release, and then finally dermoneuromodulation.  Don't worry, you won't be surprised.



avalon -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 1:50:12 PM)

Rod,

You seem angry and you're continuing some personal attacks that already created the best conditions of your muting.

@ Bob,

We are waiting for the MFR science...



Kaden -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 3:31:14 PM)

So Avalon,

Your waiting on the MFR science... I agree there is none.  But if you believe in as Rod likes to call it the dermoneuromodulation theory isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.



bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 3:57:10 PM)

I'm waiting too.  There is some hope as well.
Take care all
BOB



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 4:41:35 PM)

Kaden - a teensie little difference between DNM and MFR - MFR introduces hitherto unmeasured and unknown modes of communication (micro-tubules), tissue "memory", liquid crystal characterisics of fascia, claims of lengthening fascia with low forces (studies show that that is not possible), claims of successful treatment for autism, scoliosis, ADHD and so forth. This is far removed from the underpinnings of DNM. Human neurophysiology - no magic, no mysterious "universal energy" or "vibrational frequencies" - just human neurophysiology and gentle inter-human interaction. Which is the ONLY similarity between the two.

Hello Bob. No more Latin?



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:17:19 PM)

Hello Avalon.  I am sorry my characterizations offend you.  As I have stated before, I make no claims to perfection.  However, I have no genuine apologies to make for my statements on this or any other forum.  The moderators on this forum are welcome to moderate me as they see fit, but it will not change the facts of these debates.
Fact #1:  Regardless of how we feel about orthopedic manual therapy, there is data supporting and refuting it's use in various forms.
Fact #2:  Regardless of how we feel about myofascial release, there is data supporting and refuting it's use in various forms.
Fact #3:  There is no peer reviewed literature directly supporting or refuting DNM.  Therefore all debate is based on anecdote and opinion.  Anyone who swears it works or swears it doesn't has NO firm ground to stand on.

I will call anyone to the mat who asserts otherwise.



Kaden -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:30:24 PM)

Sebastian,

I came into this discussion way to late to dive in full steam ahead.  I just started it as a simple discussion on some techniques to help patients with scoliosis.

I must comment on your last post however.  I agree there is a major difference b/w the DNM group and the MFR folks from the Barne's school.  However there is one major connection between those two.  Show me the RCT that show what you claim to be doing with either of those techniques works.  There isn't one.  That is a big enough difference for me to lump the two groups together.

...and don't show me paper that might support the rationale behind the idea - show me the papers that what you do as the DNM group works.  It is one thing to talk theory and even to talk theory that is grounded in science.  It is quite another to show that this theory translates into improvements in patient outcomes via RCT.  That is the problem with the DNM group in that they have not been able to progress beyond the theory. 




Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:32:24 PM)

Rod, my debate is not about the gentle use of hands - which is the commonality between some MFR and those who apply DNM or other gentle manual techniques, or even woo-woo techniques. 
MY disagreement is about the underlying science as it pertains to the possible and/or likely effects; one suggests it is mainly neurophysiological (including brain of course), the other is claiming it is due to some mystical, unmeasurable ("science can not measure it yet - but we can feel it") phenomena.
Also, the outcomes claimed by the one group are so far removed from the outcomes claimed by the MFR group, that it is laughable to compare them. 
Nowhere have I (or others supporting DNM) suggested that gentle manual techniques and thoughtful interaction between therapist and patient (including education) are not effective. The point of contention is the EXPLANATION of why it is effective....



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:35:55 PM)

Kaden, I have never suggested that the outcomes of MFR are less than those of DNM!  That big difference between the 2 concepts, is that one at least has a scientifically PLAUSIBLE theory. Of course, outcomes are nice - but see how long it took for orthopaedic manual techniques to get some decent outcomes? 
I can not give outcomes - just a better theoretical basis than MFR (or chiro, or Reiki, ..)



Kaden -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:45:14 PM)

Sebastian

I never implied you said the outcomes of MFR were worse than DNM and if I did I apologize.  I agree the theory behind DNM is far more sound than the MFR theory. Just wanted to make the point that theory is just that - a plausible idea for how something might work but makes no gaurantees that something will work.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 5:49:49 PM)

Kaden -you're right - you never said it. I read it into it - my bad.  No 'pologies needed.
And your point is well taken.



SJBird55 -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 6:52:51 PM)

Avalon... I doubt any of us muted or banned become "angry."  Your choices to mute or ban various posters maintains the cult attitude over at SS.  The moderators over at SS like full and complete control and have created a "safe haven" for themselves.  Whatever... you can just go round and round patting each other on the back and keeping your likemindedness to yourselves.  I still read over at SS for my "entertainment."

Skin stretching, craniosacral therapy and myofascial release would appear the same if videotaped.  The actual manual intervention itself appears very similar - the story is different, the "theory" is different, but the actual interventions would appear comparable.  Craniosacral therapy is bunk with no proven long term positive outcomes... myofascial release has no proven long term benefits... skin stretching has nothing but opinion.  Those over at SS do not have an open mind... but if skin stretching is apparently beneficial long term, the difference isn't just in the theory - the difference is probably also in the level/type of education provided to patients.  The effect is probably not in the periphery, but instead centrally.  Patients with persistent pain have neuroplastic changes.  Skin stretching doesn't reduce some mechanical deformation in a patient with persistent pain.... I highly doubt that there is any peripheral impact to explain any long term benefit to skin stretching.  This is all putting the cart before the horse though because no one knows IF skin stretching is beneficial (except for testimonials).



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 7:30:27 PM)

Sebastian. I couldn't agree more with you.  I am very gentle in my manual approaches when there seems to be a pain vs mechanically dominant presentation.  Over the years, mainly through common sense observation, I've discoverd that "going Conan" on many patients simply doesn't work. 

Some, on the other hand, do respond to this approach and it's up to us to try to find out why.  DNM has seemingly very sound theories to back it up but no evidence.  MFR has highly questionable and unsound biological principles behind it, yet there is some evidence that its use benefits some patients.  Neither is sufficent to warrant their consistent use in the clinic in the face of alternatives (read best evidence) that have both theory AND evidence to support them. 

It is the brash "take our word for it" attitude that I find most distasteful among the ideologues in many tribes.  I've seen it in ortho approaches just like we see it in many MFR and recently the DNM proponents.  The truth is, as clinical scientists or scientific clinicians, no one should be claming superiority as it isn't a pissing contest.  There will likely never be the "final answer".  As such, it's fine to have a passionate opinion, but there's no reason to belittle someone who holds an alternate viewpoint. 

I REALLY am opposed to MFR as a theory, but somehow Bob and I have never locked horns because he acknowledges other viewpoints as potentially valid (and they are).[;)] 

I drop the gloves when someone starts speaking as an authority figure.  I really start throwing haymakers when said authority figure has nothing substantive to back up their statements.  Basically just being a bulley.  All talk, but once you punch them in the mouth, they run and cry...or ban you from their forum. [:D]

I think there is plenty of room in the arena of ideas for any potential solution to complicated clinical problems.  But if you claim to have the answers or are willing to push someone else around with your attitude, you'd better be ready to back it up.



Jon Newman -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 8:33:23 PM)

quote:

Your choices to mute or ban various posters maintains the cult attitude over at SS.  The moderators over at SS like full and complete control and have created a "safe haven" for themselves.  Whatever... you can just go round and round patting each other on the back and keeping your likemindedness to yourselves.  I still read over at SS for my "entertainment."


Sj, if you read for comprehension rather than entertainment you might have been able to see that Tex and yourself were not gone because of a lack of likemindedness with the moderators, it was because you both seem to have personal vendettas that you were exercising on the forum and it was not only distracting but unacceptable in that venue. 



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 10:28:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Newman

quote:

Your choices to mute or ban various posters maintains the cult attitude over at SS.  The moderators over at SS like full and complete control and have created a "safe haven" for themselves.  Whatever... you can just go round and round patting each other on the back and keeping your likemindedness to yourselves.  I still read over at SS for my "entertainment."


Sj, if you read for comprehension rather than entertainment you might have been able to see that Tex and yourself were not gone because of a lack of likemindedness with the moderators, it was because you both seem to have personal vendettas that you were exercising on the forum and it was not only distracting but unacceptable in that venue. 


If by distracting and unacceptable you mean "other" than I agree Jon.  The fact is the dynamic duo have their heads too far...er...up in the clouds to acknowledge other opinions.  The unfortunate side effect is that the more they behave with this bunker mentality, the more they will drift toward pseudoscience.  You and I will agree to disagree as these are matters of perception of whose behavior is more unacceptable. 

I find high-mindedness and authoritative attitudes as repugnant and pathetic as you view my responses to them.



Jon Newman -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 27, 2008 10:57:51 PM)

For the life of me I can't understand your aversion to high-mindedness.  I have to think that you have a different understanding of the word than I do.  I agree that authority should be questioned.  In fact, I'd have to ask why you hate America if you don't do it.  Finding authority repugnant and pathetic however isn't as productive as actually questioning authority. 

If my memory serves me, we changed the "moderator's concensus on pain" based on issues you raised.  How much acknowledgement do you require not to find us repugnant and pathetic?  (That was a rhetorical question.)

Anyway, now I'm distracting from this thread. 



TexasOrtho -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 12:19:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Newman

For the life of me I can't understand your aversion to high-mindedness.  I have to think that you have a different understanding of the word than I do.  I agree that authority should be questioned.  In fact, I'd have to ask why you hate America if you don't do it.  Finding authority repugnant and pathetic however isn't as productive as actually questioning authority. 

If my memory serves me, we changed the "moderator's concensus on pain" based on issues you raised.  How much acknowledgement do you require not to find us repugnant and pathetic?  (That was a rhetorical question.)

Anyway, now I'm distracting from this thread. 


We truly must have different definitions of the word.  Jon you and I agreed to disagree without exchanging insults.  The same could be said for my discussions between Jason and Luke.  If you look at the tenor of D & B's statements toward those of different opinions, you'll quickly see how they choose to alienate those who offer dissenting opinion.  If you factor out D's bizarre insistances that orthopedics is "tooth fairy" science and Dorko's platitudes, you will find some very productive debate on the lengthy threads on ectodermic approaches and evidence. 

That's ok of course as it's Dorko's website to do with as he pleases. 

Not sure I get the whole "hate America" analogy but I'm guessing it was reference to authority.  Incidentlally, I'm about as red as it comes and bristle at even the association with hating our country.  I'm sure that's not what you meant however. 

Let me restate a very simple and logical premise:  there is no place for an authority in a scientific discussion.  You, Jason, Luke, Sebastian and others seem to get this.
------

Indeed getting back to the discussion, did anyone manage to find any [eer reviewed information on physical therapy and scoliosis?




avalon -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 1:54:58 AM)

quote:

Avalon... I doubt any of us muted or banned become "angry." Your choices to mute or ban various posters maintains the cult attitude over at SS. The moderators over at SS like full and complete control and have created a "safe haven" for themselves. Whatever... you can just go round and round patting each other on the back and keeping your likemindedness to yourselves. I still read over at SS for my "entertainment."

SJ,
Once again you try to tell us that Somasimple bans every noisy member who disagrees. There is actually 7 muted members. Just seven since 2004.
BTW, I'm happy to see that you are still learning and silent.

Rod,
A mimimum rule that drives Somasimple is: Do not send PMs to any member (or moderator) with this content => "Kiss my Ace" (the typo is intentional => I do not fall in this kind of child comment). I decided the "muting" in this hidden context. I thought also, that your intelligence was wasted into personal attacks in place of useful arguments.



bobmfrptx -> RE: thoughts on manual therapy for scoliosis (March 28, 2008 7:44:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sebastian Asselbergs

unmeasured and unknown modes of communication (micro-tubules), tissue "memory", liquid crystal characterisics of fascia, claims of lengthening fascia with low forces (studies show that that is not possible),

Hello Bob. No more Latin?


Bas,
From your post on SS regarding the  study on stretch and fibroblasts  http://www.uvm.edu/~annb/faculty/PDFs/C747.pdf    you  state..."Interesting findings about the stretchability of tissue wth small amounts of force - that alone is supporting the need to touch gently. It does not support much else at this time."

Which is  your belief now... it does or it doesn't or does it depend on the topic at hand.?
Bob
Audiatur et altera pars!



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