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RE: hiring massage therapist
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 20, 2008 7:48:13 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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...and OAK, this has been vetted by the Government.....as per our Association communication with Revenue Canada.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 20, 2008 5:02:21 PM
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OAK
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I don't see how you're satisfying this point:
3. RISK OF PROFIT/CHANCE OF LOSS
This indicates that a person is in the business to make money and is at risk of losing money as opposed to earning a fixed wage / salary or ongoing commission.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 20, 2008 7:24:51 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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OAK, see my point about GROSS income by the MT? If she does not see patients, she does not make money. Her bills for mortgage continue etc......This would be at a loss if she has more bills to pay than incoming money! This is no different from a carpenter providing framing services for a contractor - he always (one hopes) gets paid for what he does, but if it is not enough to cover the bills, it is at a loss! No-one is paying her a "commission" or anything else, UNLESS she sees patients....They are the ones paying her, of which she pays a share to the clinic she uses.... I do not how much more clear I can get on this - a system well-tested and refined over the last 12 years.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 20, 2008 10:36:49 PM
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OAK
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"OAK, see my point about GROSS income by the MT? If she does not see patients, she does not make money."
This is not a loss though. Personal expenses (mortage) are not to be confused with business expenses.
Point 3 is not satisfied.
< Message edited by OAK -- March 20, 2008 10:54:46 PM >
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 21, 2008 4:04:18 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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??? Not making money is not a loss? Funny. Not according to MY accountant.
Their yellow pages costs still continue, their professional insurance and association fees still continue, their accountant still needs to get paid, their supplies need to be kept up, their travel costs between their places of service (even without pts, they need to show up) all add up to costs.... I used mortgage because one of the MTs I know works out of her home as well...and thus the mortage (part of it) becomes a business cost.
NOT making any money - or making a reduced amount for what is budgetted for - while having to continue to pay expenses is called a (potential) LOSS by accountants....
And the point three says: "opposed to earning a fixed wage / salary or ongoing commission." This alone shows clearly my point: when they do not see patients - they do not get paid. No commission, no salary. No cut. Nada. No different than ANY other professional or tradesperson (like carpenters...)
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 21, 2008 4:48:23 PM
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OAK
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"Their yellow pages costs still continue, their professional insurance and association fees still continue, their accountant still needs to get paid, their supplies need to be kept up, their travel costs between their places of service (even without pts, they need to show up) all add up to costs.... I used mortgage because one of the MTs I know works out of her home as well...and thus the mortage (part of it) becomes a business cost."
All these expenses, with the exception of travel costs (not a tax deductable expense) are independent from your agreement.
You don't seem to fully understand the concept of a loss.
If I make $100,000 as a Physical Therapist and spend $1,000,000 on a trip to Europe. In the eyes of the government I haven't lost $900,000 I have made $100,000.
What specific loss would have occured if your agreement did not produce any revenue?
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 21, 2008 8:41:32 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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OAK, do not worry. I fully understand the concept of loss, profit and such. I have been in private practice for 25 years and owned my own clinic for 14 years now - and have always worked through chartered accountants. It is obvious you do not understand the situiation here.
Maybe you should check with your accountant - hopefully fully versed in Ontario tax laws....from which (as you can see) I am speaking. Travel costs ARE tax deductible here - IF there is more than ONE place of work (an essential aspect in our scenario here...) or if in general, travel is an essential part of the earning of money (salesmen).
I'd like you to extrapolate this type of argument to the tradesmen in construction....Which is where the "independent contractor" review came from. A carpenter NOT working as much as he expected and budgetted for, still shows some income on paper. According to your logic, he is salaried.....or receiving commission?
Then one more time: " is at risk of losing money as opposed to earning a fixed wage / salary or ongoing commission."
My underline: in other words - if a person receives an ongoing commission or a fixed wage or salary - you are right. Now again, the MT does NOT receive a fixed salary or ongoing commission. And again - according to Revenue Canada, the arrangement as I have described is OK.
So, you are of course free to disagree, but this is common practice here and well-checked by both regulatory Colleges of MTs and PTs, as well as Revenue Canada.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 21, 2008 10:37:28 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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That is EXACTLY right. Very small BUT most important detail.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 22, 2008 11:17:48 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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LOL - the "honor" system?!?
Really, talk to an accountant. What one calls a certain item can make a HUGE difference in tax language. The type of papertrail used in transactions makes a HUGE difference as well.
(And do not forget that the issue about "commission - salary- wage" was only ONE of many aspects that needed satisfying, before one could be called independent contractor).
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 22, 2008 1:22:10 PM
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OAK
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"Really, talk to an accountant. What one calls a certain item can make a HUGE difference in tax language. The type of papertrail used in transactions makes a HUGE difference as well."
Did you talk to The Canada Revenue Agency or just your accountant?
Remember all those offshore accounts that many accountants claimed were all perfectly legal?
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 22, 2008 1:55:20 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Yep: myself, our associations and our own accountants have talked to Revenue Canada over the last few years.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 22, 2008 2:05:01 PM
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OAK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sebastian Asselbergs
Yep: myself, our associations and our own accountants have talked to Revenue Canada over the last few years.
I find that hard to believe.
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RE: hiring massage therapist - March 22, 2008 5:50:45 PM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1205
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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? I can't help that....
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