Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (Full Version)

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smithcove -> Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 21, 2007 9:32:47 PM)

I have a few clients who have asked if I can provide a massage service to them. My question is can I provide this service while marketing it as a massage treatment and nothing else with an MSPT degree. I'm not three years out of school yet thus I can't see a pt via direct access in my state (NY). My goal is to provide myofascial release for about an hous session for 120 dollars.



PTupdate.com -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 22, 2007 10:17:05 PM)

I personally own a massage therapy business, but make sure that I am not providing any type of physical therapy treatment, but rather "massage" only.  For my wife, who also works for me, it's different, as she is not a PT, and was formally trained in massage, and has a degree.  I just have good hands, and did so far before I became a PT.  Thus, I am providng "massage therapy", and NOT physical therapy.  You, on the other hand, will be providing a PT trained technique (MFR), which could certainly be used against you with that one person who claims "he hurt me"



MPT -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 23, 2007 7:31:44 AM)

I am pretty sure that in NY we are able to provide preventative care direct access regardless of experience.  That being, care not directed towards a particular diagnosis.  So we could run an exercise class for the elderly or a back school for workers.  You could also try to have the person get a referral for massage from their MD with the understanding that you will not bill insurance. I don't think the law states an expiration for referrals so you could have the MD write it for a year or just not put any date on it.



proud -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 23, 2007 1:03:12 PM)

And then we ask why we as a profession have not progressed towards expert status in the eyes of third party payors and the general public....

Massage treatment should not be a close "cousin" to what we do. This question really frustrates me.

And myofascial release? Yikes are we in 1985 here?



aph401 -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 25, 2007 6:07:42 PM)

i agree with proud. makes my skin crawl to think about physical therapists being seen by the general public as expert massage therapists or in any way related to massage therapy.



pappawheelie -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 26, 2007 3:16:18 PM)

Our roots of physical therapy are founded upon the principles of joint and soft tissue manipulation.  Early physical therapists in England were members of the "Society of Trained Masseuses" before it became known as the "Chartered Society of Physiotherapy".  The distinction between soft tissue mobilization and massage is largely semantic, and depends on the intent of the therapist.  Addressing and mobilizing soft tissue are a critical aspect of physical therapy, however, we should make it clear that we are not massage therapists and should be able to explain the difference to our clients.  Just like explaining to a client that joint mobilizations are not "chiropractic adjustments".

If a client of mine is looking for a massage I will refer them to a massage therapist, but only because I am not a massage therapist.  We all have the right to chose and practice in more than one profession.  A physical therapist, trained and skilled in massage therapy, and who practices as a massage therapist does not discredit our profession.  Discredit only comes when we as physical therapists practice as massage therapists.



KIDPT23 -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (October 29, 2007 5:18:15 PM)

First of all you cannot turn off your P.T. license, so when you are performing a massage on a client after hours...your P.T. license is still in effect...that means that your state licensure guidelines still apply....you also would have to have an occupational massage license to accept payment for services for massage



smithcove -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 12:01:06 AM)

Thank you all who have responded, I do need to clear a few things up.
1. I should have not stated MFR
2. I have a fellow PT who is a trainer at a gym with some high end clients, I have been approached by some of them as well as some of my pts if I can provide the massage service. I do very little massage, MFR, manual muscle strumming....when I treat
3. It is not illegal in NYS to provide a massage, and charge for it, as a PT.
4. I have good outcomes in my clinic with my pts and I feel I have my pts respect as a clinician, non view me or physical therapy on the same level as massage therapists, ( I have asked a few pts what they think of PT compaired to LMT )



PTupdate.com -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 9:25:47 AM)

I'm not sure what the hang up is when it comes to "massage" and so many physical therapists. In my opinion, humble as it may be, when we touch and work the soft tissue on a patient, we are massaging them.  Those with insecurity problems will vehemently indicate they are NOT doing massage, but rather "mobilizing fascia", or "channeling body energy", and a bunch other babble.

Personally, I could care less what the patient calls my  manual therapy when they walk out the door, and I certainly don't bother with the energy of trying to "wow" them with techno-talk. All I care about is the fact that they walked out my door feeling better, and that's why my clinic is thriving.

A case in point:  I personally have dealt with C4-5 issues on the left, and over the past year, C6 on the right.  I've had some very very well trained manual therapists work on me, I've done to myself what I can, and my wife is a massage therapist who has also worked on me.  Know what works the best?  When I put $10 on the counter and have my one PT aide "massage" the ususal C6 referred area (flare ups occur from acting like a dumbass at the gym, sleeping in an odd position, or some other mechanically dumb move on my part).  Either way, it hurts, and she is able to get rid of it.

Here in PA, there is no licensure for massage therapy, so anybody can hang out a shingle and call themselves a "massage therapist".  Those with good hands, and perhaps (but not always) an education in massage therapy are able to help a lot of people.  Those PT's who look down on them, as if somehow their PT degree makes them "superior", are missing the boat.



proud -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 12:19:22 PM)

The difference is in the training John. The difference is SUPPOSED to be in the level of abilities to critically evaluate research and deeply understand the science. Patients in pain deserve a certain level of expert training don't you think? Entrance standards into PT schools helps maintain the level high to ensure those accepted are CAPABLE of that knid of critical analysis. This does not happen in massage therapy. Most massge colleges have NO entrance standards in fact.

Are there a few untrained people who have good hands and perhaps by pure luck are able to "find the spot"? Sure, but surely you do not feel this is a sound manner in which to dispense NMSK advice and treatment on the masses? Random selection and a general free for all? Anyone hangs a shingle and tries their hand at treating things? And HEY! if by chance someone gets lucky we have substantantiated that form of NMSK management?

Yikes...

One of the few times I truly disagree with you John. Strongly disagree.



TLB -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 1:26:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: proud



Yikes...

One of the few times I truly disagree with you John. Strongly disagree.


Me too, nothing makes my skin crawl more than someone saying "oh, your a physical therapist, here rub my back."  I thought we were trying to move this profession forward not back in the stoneage.  Does massage make people feel better???? You bet.  Does it have any lasting effects....NO

John I can help you with that stubborn C4/5 and no one will have to rub your neck, you see I have the same thing and it occasionally flares up just like yours.  A directional preference course taught me how to treat my own symptoms so I wouldn't have to run to someone everytime it flares, particularly a massage therapist.  Maybe it's just me but the only good massage therapist I know are Asian.[:)]



pappawheelie -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 1:48:28 PM)

The point I liked about John's post was that there are a lot of massage therapists that help a lot of people.  Helping people is what it is all about.  No single profession is going to have all of the answers.  We do "miss the boat" when we think we are "superior" to other professions. 



Shill -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 1:52:32 PM)

Well I for one dont disagree with John.  I wholeheartedly agree.  What John describes is security in what he does, without needing to pull out a wow factor.

There are some in our field that develop a holier than thou attitude, that we as PT should be the only ones evaluating and dispensing treatments for anything related to discomfort or pain or dysfunction, almost paranoid that all of our services will be stolen by other fields.  I am not a big fan of this mindset.  It is my opinion that this is part of a greater insecurity that abounds,  that we do not get our due respect.  Respect is achieved through achieving good outcomes. 

Proud said....Patients in pain deserve a certain level of expert training don't you think?  PATIENTS yes.  But not everyone who has a backache actually needs to become a patient.  Perhaps we have people out there who are doing just fine, have a few aches and pains, and they just want to be rubbed. They should then seek massage therapy.  Some people have no intentions to do exercises or make changes to improve their function.  I happen to think these folks are a fine fit for massage therapy.

Proud mentioned that he doesnt think they should dispense NMSK advice and treatment, and to the advice part I agree.  The treatment part not so much.  Why cant a back rub just be a back rub without people getting all bent out of shape?



smithcove -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 1:55:04 PM)

The thing is I'm not looking to "treat" anyone, I'm tryin g to provide a service, I have gotten fairly comfortable with using my hands, a solid base with anatomy, thus I want to just provide that service, I alsio happen to be a PT, one does not mix with the other b/c I'm not evaluating these people, "this is where you are tight, this is why you are tight, or hypertonic" I'm looking to massage them, thats it. Will I be responsible and ask them a few questions prior to the massage that will allow me to move forward or not, yes, for my own information. I agree with John as well, we are not superior to anyother skilled professional, it is our scope of practice that makes us useful.



TLB -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 2:19:05 PM)

Are you saying massage is a skilled profession?  If you are then there is no need for me to beat my head against the wall with you.  I'll just stick you in the same category of the other off the wall PT's such as cranio-sacral, MFR (John Barnes) ect.ect.ect.



proud -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 2:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shill



Proud said....Patients in pain deserve a certain level of expert training don't you think?  PATIENTS yes.  But not everyone who has a backache actually needs to become a patient.  Perhaps we have people out there who are doing just fine, have a few aches and pains, and they just want to be rubbed. They should then seek massage therapy.  Some people have no intentions to do exercises or make changes to improve their function.  I happen to think these folks are a fine fit for massage therapy.


You said:  ..."not everyone who has a backache needs to become a patient...."

In this single sentence you made my argument for me. Direct access to a singular "expert" would avoid the many needless interpretations and explanations to patients concerning their problems( knots here, tight bands there, joints out of alignment,  discs popping out etc). Research is now showing that fear and patho-anotomical explanations for pain in fact WORSON many NMSK consitions. Unfortunately many PT's also do not spend the time to understand the research. However a one expert system would aide in moving towards a more Evidence based model. This would unquestionably help society deal with escalating healhcare costs in the long run.

Clearly we have a long way to go before we in the PT profession recognize how important this truly is. We just keep shooting ourselves and our patients in the foot by taking the passive stance that..."shucks.... good ol' competition is healthy"...

It has nothing to do with competition guys. Like John, I have few people who confuse me with a masseur after speaking with me. What it IS about is getting a grip on a very poor system of dealing conservatively with NMSK in general.

You are right shill...not everyone with a backache needs treatment. But do you trust a massuer to understand that and also understand the potential implications of telling people about tight bands or unhealthy "trigger points"...all unfounded?

Sorry guys, but to insinuation that those that take offense to this notion that we all have a place so to speak are "insecure", just don't get the big picture. In my opinion.



smithcove -> RE: Can a PT provide massage for fee in NY as side- job (November 8, 2007 3:17:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TLB

Are you saying massage is a skilled profession?  If you are then there is no need for me to beat my head against the wall with you.  I'll just stick you in the same category of the other off the wall PT's such as cranio-sacral, MFR (John Barnes) ect.ect.ect.



SURE I DO, SOME ARE VERY SKILLED WITH THEIR MASSAGE, A LISENSED MT RECEIVES A FINE EDUCATION, WHY ARE YOU SO AGAINST MFR, CRANIO-SACRAL, ECT, ECT, JUST BECAUSE YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE POSITIVE OUTCOMES WITH SUCH TECHNIQUES, GENERALIZES THAT OTHER HAVE FAILED AS WELL. I AM AWARE OF A FEW SKILLED PT'S WHO HAVE WONDERFUL SKILLS, AS WELL AS OUTCOMES WITH PATIENTS AND ARE SKILLED IN CRANIO-SACRAL AND MFR.



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