RE: Neck Pain (Full Version)

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Kaden -> RE: Neck Pain (February 29, 2008 7:20:28 PM)

Bob,

Good points.  I do think some of your statements bring up the question of when is preventitive care good and when does it border on excessive.  For me there would need to be better evidence of which individuals with LLD will eventually develop compensations in other parts of the chain. 

It is one thing to acknowledge that a "norm" can lead to biomechanical faults and it is quite another to assume they all will and we must treat these in a preventitive nature.  The former at least makes us aware of remote causes of biomechanical pain while the latter leads to excessive expensive treatment to patients lacking in clinical evidence.




bobmfrptx -> RE: Neck Pain (February 29, 2008 7:37:14 PM)

kaden
Agreed.  Determining the latter is the rub. 




steve -> RE: Neck Pain (February 29, 2008 10:07:59 PM)

Quoting Bob

The question is when will it become a problem.  Degenerative changes associated with compensatory mechanisms of the body likely will occur if not abolished by allowing the client to return to as near a physiological state of rest posture as possible.  Walking on an unlevel base with the body reading S2 as COG will lead ot head tilt, via optical righting, and mid foot collapse due to the bodies attempt to level the pelvis and S2.
We can manually correct these conditions via gentle handling techniques designed to restore proper neurodynamics or let the medical doctors read studies like this:
http://www.newsmax.com/health/Acupuncture_Back_Pain/2007/09/25/35438.html
and lose our referral base.

Quite the interesting perspective - the reason we as a profession are so frequently disregarded with respect to our interventions is the rampant use of multiple unreliable assessments and using these findings to guide treatment interventions that supposedly fix problems that have an unknown contribution to pathology. Throw in huge variations in practice patterns across therapists and then have them participate in a study like the one you quote and our treatment effect is invariably little to none. To argue that the treatment philosiphies you suggest would help our image within the medical world is questionable at best.

I can understand the appeal of these theoretical models you are using - they provide a nice package to understand why patients have pain and provide a nice easy way to "Fix" that pain. I would even argue that for a subgroup of the individuals that you treat they are effective but probably not because of the rational that they are applied. The truth of the matter is we are so far from understanding the pathology and the multifactorial contributions to the vast majority of our patients pain experience that using the system you propose is laughable and in all likelihood contributes to increasing unwarranted fear avoidance beliefs given a pathological posture diagnosis.

Whats next - checking the level of the testicles?

Steve




bobmfrptx -> RE: Neck Pain (March 1, 2008 11:18:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steve

Quoting Bob


Quite the interesting perspective - the reason we as a profession are so frequently disregarded with respect to our interventions is the rampant use of multiple unreliable assessments and using these findings to guide treatment interventions that supposedly fix problems that have an unknown contribution to pathology. ..........


I can understand the appeal of these theoretical models you are using - they provide a nice package to understand why patients have pain and provide a nice easy way to "Fix" that pain. I would even argue that for a subgroup of the individuals that you treat they are effective but probably not because of the rational that they are applied.

Whats next - checking the level of the testicles?

Steve


Steve...
Do not include me in ....the we as a profession  speech.....Shake and bake exercise approaches to a neuromuscular proprioception problem  which generally substitutes for authentic physical therapy is not what I do.
I have been treating clients for over 26 years...the last 21 with the approach I use now....I am well regarded in the region in which I practice... I have a waiting list of 30 days. My referral base is across the state.  In fact clients drive over 140 miles to see me, not because it s me, but rather that as you rightly speculate...the methods I use work.
The rationale is based on form follows function and the adverse neural tension leads to associated postural changes and biomechanical  compensatory faults which lead ultimately to the typical wear and tear problems we blame on aging.   I do not fix anyone!!!  I provide an environment that allows the body return to homeostasis via its own inherent corrective mechanism thru movement and increased awareness of the bodies protective bracing patterns.
As for testicles....mine are hanging right out there if you wish to check.
Bob




bobmfrptx -> RE: Neck Pain (March 1, 2008 2:52:05 PM)

You have never heard of Mariano Rocabado? http://www.bodylogicaustralia.com.au/brochure/rocabado.pdf
I do not serve him I serve but One.
I am not trying to win an arguement, I am way beyond that...I'll keep cleaning up after collegues like Steve,  removing heel lifts, I use them maybe one in one hundred clients, and restoring real people to real painfree function for a long long time and cost effectively I may add.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_logic
Applying linear logic to a dynamic living being is only one of your percieved realities which you believe you can control.
Those of you who say it can't be done do not bother us who are doing it.




Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: Neck Pain (March 1, 2008 3:11:55 PM)

Bob, you seem to always get stuck in this -Look how effective my approach is- mode. Did anyone dispute your effectiveness here.... Talk about the underlying model to explain why your hands-on approach could  be so effective. The problem is here, you need to use scientifically plausible models. Otherwise all we have is a lot of unverifiable anecdotes. And self-congratulatory blather.

Mariano Rocabado is but a PT who teaches his ideas. And YES, before you ask: I took courses from him. A long time ago.




bobmfrptx -> RE: Neck Pain (March 1, 2008 3:20:25 PM)

Bas,
I did mention the under lying model...neural tension, biomechanical shifts secondary to protection of the body...reflexive changes to maintain homeostasis....I thought you would like these...they are based in the neuro end of things.......
On SS Diane just used an arguement to try to lengthen a limb to see what other trophic changes occur due to the nervous systems response to freedom....less pain away from the site....
Am I wrong here?
Bob




Sebastian Asselbergs -> RE: Neck Pain (March 2, 2008 12:16:51 AM)

Bob please don't equate your treating the "whole body" with what Diane or anyone else does. She certainly does not go looking for LLD - either above or below the equator....

This gem really goes against everything we have been talking about at SS: "the adverse neural tension leads to associated postural changes and biomechanical  compensatory faults which lead ultimately to the typical wear and tear problems we blame on aging. " 


For the rest - see Crevidence's post - succinct and to the point......




steve -> RE: Neck Pain (March 2, 2008 1:17:32 AM)

Bob,

I'm really not interested in arguing whos patient list is the longest and who can do the better job fixing people up... Therapists are busy for reasons other than getting people better, perhaps the best example of this is one of the chiropractors who boast seeing up to 400 patients per day. Sadly, the type of care you advocate will likely appeal and be effective with that same 9% of the population who are interested in getting chiropractic care.

My problem with the "I do it because it works" faulty logic system is three fold:

1) It relies on experiential learning, which, although valuable, has significant issues with recall bias. Much of the practice patterns are based on guru teaching with faulty theoretical rationale.
2) Discards, ignores and fails to incorporate the use of evidence into practice because it conflicts with the clinicians theoretical held beliefs creating a clinician who is providing less than optimal care and unwilling to change practice patterns.
3) It reflects poorly on the rest of us who are attempting to give our profession increasing credibility as the MSK provider of choice within the medical community as opposed to being a fringe alternative medicine provider.

 




proud -> RE: Neck Pain (March 2, 2008 10:19:39 PM)

"Bob" is the poster child for all that is wrong with this potentially great profession. It's why we struggle as a profession.

Luckily, I work in an environment working closely with Physicians, orthopeadic surgeons etc so they see the difference in ability to communicate between and evidence based Physiotherapist and various alternative providers. They appreciate when I tell them to take a picture of a hip because one of the tests I just performed has high specificity for intra-articular pathology and I quote the research. They get that.

Unfortunately third party payors see "bob" as represetative of our profession and say..."...what is the difference between a PT, a massuer and the local chiro offering Vax-d and thermal scans...."

When will our own professional regulators create an action file on this stuff? Perhaps once our professional association removes adds for John Barns seminars from association magazines? Geesh...

Is that a direct enough " we as a profession" speech for you "bob"?




PTHermas -> RE: Neck Pain (October 31, 2008 11:44:42 PM)

Here's the scenerio...Short and strong posterior neck musculature and anterior shoulder/chest.  Long and weak anterior neck musculature and posterior shoulders/upper back.  Hence, upper and mid cervical facet prolonged compression in extension and lower cervical facets in prolonged flexion. Has your thoracic spine mobility been assessed?  Appropriate exercises and manual therapy definately indicated and necessary!  I don't want to knock anybody. But where does extensor strengthening and passive modalities even fit in this picture? 




ginger -> RE: Neck Pain (November 3, 2008 6:49:30 AM)

A lot of crazy talk here about Norm, what has he done to any of you?, Ok he does dress funny and has bad breath , but , he hasn't been the same since my sister married him.




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