Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (Full Version)

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Dr.Wagner -> Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 2, 2007 12:55:49 PM)

Earlier this week, I was quite disturbed to find a 79 year old patient in the ER that was told "I am full of infection, that's why I fell".  Taking care of her fall was not a problem, but it was the "I am full of infection" quote that made me think.  I asked her "why do you think that", she stated that her chiropractor had ordered a urinalysis and decided that not only did she have an infection, but she had kidney stones.

Well the urine was infact infected and did have some blood (not necessarily diagnostic of stones...in the absence of pain).  But the fact that the chiropractor had initiated "herbal therapy" for her UTI days earlier.
The problem is this...1. With a diagnostic urinalysis, prescribing "herbs" is reportable to the Medical board or Chiropractic Board...may not necessarily be disciplined, but reportable.  2.  The elderly and UTIs do NOT go along well.  It is likely that UTIs cause sepsis and eventual death in thousands of elderly Americans yearly...this is NOT the thing we want to give herbs to.  3.  Without appropriate Culture and Sensitivity, appropriate treatment will NOT be found...they don't do a C and S for herbs.



jlharris -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 2, 2007 1:07:21 PM)

Just one more example of non-physicians trying to practice medicine (If you want to be a Captain, go to Captian school).  Story would have been different if he'd referred the pt to the appropriate physician for care.  Then the chiro could be held up as an example of how DC's can actually work as a part of the health care system and get their pt's the proper care.

As a side not, one of our "famous" DC's here in Omaha was on TV for an informercial toutinig chiropractic manipulations for the cure of all things.  In this case it was getting rid of some pt's sinus problems he'd had for "24 years".  How do laymen not see the absurdity of this??



jma -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 2, 2007 9:55:05 PM)

Agree with you 100%. Glad you caught it in time. Hope the patient learned a good lesson from this experience.



SJBird55 -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 8, 2007 11:37:33 AM)

I'm all for "natural," but "natural" doesn't always equate to maintaining health.  Quite a few patients favor using herbs and natural supplements because of their belief system.  They really do believe that herbs and supplements are far safer than most prescribed medications and over the counter products because the herbs and natural supplements are "natural."  I tend to believe that some of this belief is supported via the crap the massage therapist, chiropractor OR the person that owns the little store that sells the products tells a customer.  The communication always seems to have a strong "sales" perspective without communicating the potential risks or hazards of the "natural" product.  They fail to mention that since the FDA isn't involved in the herbs/supplements than there is a possibility that the main component listed as THE component may not even be present in the purchased product OR the main component may not be at the labelled amount.  There also isn't any written information as to the potential interaction with prescribed medications - either a creation of a toxicity level, a negating of a prescribed medication or a quicker absorption of the prescribed medication. 

The issue of safety is far more reaching than just urinary tract infections, in my opinion.  As medical professionals, it would be nice to have the tools to assist in 1) advising on products that are as labeled AND 2) on advising, in particular with the elderly who fall prey to herbs/supplements, when the potential interactions between the herbs/supplements may be a risk to their health secondary to their prescribed medications.  I haven't come upon a good information source to assist me in educating patients succinctly without being vague.



Dr.Wagner -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 9, 2007 10:01:57 PM)

Yes, it can be quite confusing for many.  Part of the problem is that claims can go unsubstantiated by many of the "homeopaths" or "naturopaths" until illness develops.  An apple a day keeps the doctor away...very simple.



orthotherapist -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 10, 2007 8:49:57 AM)

Agree with all of the above posts - until natural/herbal remedies are studied and their effects are known this can be dangerous/misleading for consumers.

Many drugs currently used are derived from natural sources (i.e. taxol) however it has been studied and is licensed by the FDA.

As a side note - once worked in a small hospital located near a native american reservation.  The "medicine man" was admitted to the hospital with a massive CVA.  The family wanted no conventional medicine and was allowed to use their remedies.  Let's just say their was some interesting smells coming from his room.  He walked out the hospital 3 days later and continued to live independently (105 years old)

not saying the herbs are appropriate in above case



Dr.Wagner -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 11, 2007 6:58:01 AM)

Sure, the above example is great, because we all know that it is the rehab that causes the biggest difference in CVA's...in fact, if the symptoms resolved in 24 hours, then he really had a TIA...natural course of events for ischemic events.  If it was hemorrhagic then he would be seeing the "spirit in the sky".



orthotherapist -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 11, 2007 12:12:04 PM)

Let me clarify - it was a massive CVA and not a TIA - he was in the hospital for a week (you know it is bad when all MD notes begin "this unfortunate man...") before he was allowed to be treated by their methods (prior to that it was all comfort measures only).  After they used their remedies he was able to walk out of the hospital three days later - never had rehab or any traditional western medicine.



Dr.Wagner -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 13, 2007 8:01:54 AM)

Sounds like a very lucky gentleman with fantastic revascularization.  My question for him is...if he didn't want treated...why come to a hospital?  The food...the atmosphere...the fantastic company?  Well, I hope he is doing well and sounds like some great genetics.



Tom Reeves DPT ATC -> RE: Herbs do not treat Geriatric UTI's (July 16, 2007 4:15:36 PM)

I  love it when my patients refuse to take advil for pain because they don't like things that aren't natural.  Then they go on to say that they take multivitamin, fish oil, glucosamine, St. John's wort, and mineral supplements.  I respond by asking them where does the multivitamin tree grow?  Why not just eat your vegetables?  Some of them seem to get it then.



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