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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 15, 2005 1:52:00 PM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Dragonfire,
I'm partly presuming he has this problem as I see him frequently cracking his back and I understand he receives regular chiropractic treatment from things I've read and saw on TV (so consider my sources). I don't know when he started to have problems but it has been greater than 1 year that I've seen him cracking his back. I guess he couldn't fitness himself into being pain free. A lesson?
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 15, 2005 3:30:00 PM
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srcase
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From: Michigan
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Gee, I wonder why he has chronic pain....he spends 80% of his time hunched over a bicycle pedalling his a** off. It's a choice he has made because he is driven, gotta respect him for that....
Sarah
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 15, 2005 3:44:00 PM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Sara,
Like you I wonder why. If the cause was his high volume of biking, shouldn't we see more chronic back pain in the peleton? Yet I don't see most of the peleton performing self manipulation. In fact, I rarely see anyone else doing this. I don't know if other teams have team DC's. Maybe that's Discovery team's secret to success. Whatever they are doing, they have a good forumla working for winning TdF's.
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 15, 2005 9:37:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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I don't know about back cracking, do you really think you are getting any info. from watching TV about this? I think you are showing prejudicial tendencies.
I know bike riders get things like numb nutz and various wrist and hand nerve problems. I wouldn't be at all surprised if back and cervical problems are quite common. Anyone who follows sports realizes that elite competition and fitness are not really similar. I don't think anyone would argue that elite athletes don't take their body to the edge and over the edge of what is best for it.
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 15, 2005 9:58:00 PM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
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From: Hawaii
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Dr. Wagner, you disappoint me. This thread has gotten way out of control and unfortunately all of the personal insults have taken the light off the real problem which is your attack on the military medical system based on personal opinion and misinterpretation.
[QUOTE] The pathology in military hospitals and bases in the US is either 1. too basic, care is free 2. wrapped up in beaurocracy as it is necessary to jump through hoops to order basic emergency tests 3. the most difficult cases sent to surrounding civilian hospitals.
[/QUOTE]So, you have one bad experience in an Air Force hospital and generalize it to the Department of Defense. Way to be unbiased. I have worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and I will tell you the pathology was not too basic except for maybe the ED. The ED was not a level I ER so many complex cases were sent out just like in the ED you had experience in. Most military hospitals have very good relationships with their civilian counterparts, this makes for good care. It's not about poor military MDs it’s about providing services that are not available at the smaller military hospitals. BTW, the ED in the hospital you were at is scheduled the close altogether because there is a level I military ER up the road that also takes care of those pesky complex civilians.
[QUOTE] This was a MAJOR medical center at one time, now they see no trauma, no cardiac caths, virtually no neurosurgery, no pediatric inpatients, no neonatal patients.
[/QUOTE]I’m sorry you had to be apart of a hospital that is downsizing, but I assure you that this is not the case in other military hospitals.
[QUOTE] In fact military surgeons are moonlighting in trauma centers to keep their skills up. Military ED docs are moonlighting in civilian EDs to keep their skills up.
[/QUOTE]All right get real here, they moonlight to make more money (a lot more money).
[QUOTE] the ARMY military EM residency in Washington was suspended last year by the RRC by noncompliance with basic Civilian standards of care by teaching faculty
[/QUOTE]Did you even read your own citation? This is NOT an Army residency, this is a joint residency with the Army and U of W school of medicine. The problem was with Harborview medical center (civilian) NOT the military. Harborview is one of the top ten hospitals in the country and a level I ER. The problem was they didn’t have a board certified emergency physicians UNLIKE Madigan AMC’s ED (military). [QUOTE] military residencies is inferior to civilian training
[/QUOTE]Refer to above-THEY ARE JOINT RESIDENCIES military and civilian and the problem was with one civilian hospital not the other military and civilian hospitals that are part of the program.
[QUOTE] you have a heart attack, you have a major trauma (not in the sands, but hear), you have a major GI bleed, you have a brain tumor, you have a major reconstructive joint procedure, you want a major civilian hospital. Not a military base.
[/QUOTE]Now you’ve got so wrapped up in the insults you’re having trouble thinking straight. Harborview is the only level I ED in Washington, Alaska, Montana and Idaho. So who is really in trouble here - it’s all the civilians in those 4 states because of “substandard” CIVILIAN emergency medical care. Dr. Wagner, if you are in a severe car accident in Washington state, guess where you are going my friend! At least the military has a board certified emergency physician at Madigan.
Do I need to continue? Do I need to elaborate on the above? I will, but I need a response from you that is not based purely on opinion and poor interpretation.
I will not address your blatant insults to military physician and the military medical system. Very sad.
I will post this in a new thread if it is ignored.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 16, 2005 4:19:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Randy,
Exactly what prejudicial tendencies am I showing? I made the presumption that if someone cracks their back often and has a personal DC that perhaps they have ongoing back pain. I may be in error but I don't think it is a prejudice.
I agree that back and neck pains, among all the other aches and pains, are likely common in the peleton. How would the viewer be able to figure that out?
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 16, 2005 12:28:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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I don't know when he started to have problems but it has been greater than 1 year that I've seen him cracking his back. I guess he couldn't fitness himself into being pain free. A lesson?
-Jon
I think you assumed that he had chronic pain and then the comment that he couldn't fitness himself out of it shows that you are making pretty big assumptions from very limited information. That is a result of seeing things from a prejudicial viewpoint. We all do it, see what we want/expect to see.
A biomechanist will probably see something similar and believe that it is a sign of a biomechanical fault.
How do we find out? I'm not going to try telling that to the list link king.
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 16, 2005 12:46:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Randy,
If prejudice is based preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience then I'm not sure my statement is prejudice. I am using reasoning but I admit it may wrong. He has been using chiropractic services since 1999. I have watched Lance ride, seen interviews with Lance and his support crew and it seems reasonable to conclude that the guy has some pain. He has had this for more than 1 year. This would officially make it chronic. I think it would be hard to argue that fitness has made it go away. Lessons?
I see many lessons here. One is that fitness is unlikely to resolve painful problems. The other is that one can attain a high degree of physicality despite pain. The question is what needs to be in place to do this. Lance likely holds the answer to some of these questions. Are you uncomfortable seeing Lance a chronic pain sufferer?
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 4:01:00 AM
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Jeep
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From: USA
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HMMMM-
Let's see........ 6 TdFs in 6 years(and ahead as of 7-16-05)----------What can I do to become that "chronic"?
Jon- I think you are making assumptions based on extremely weak evidence.
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 4:52:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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I see we might have another prejudice forming. That is, someone with chronic pain can't possibly be functional or compete at high levels. They have to be depressed self inadequate people.
If Lance doesn't have chronic pain, and perhaps he doesn't, then why all the services normally delivered to people in pain?
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 5:09:00 AM
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SJBird55
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Athletes do a lot of things that don't always make sense. The only way to know would be to ask Lance himself. Maybe he does have chronic pain... maybe he has a ritual and believes that chiropractic is beneficial... maybe he thinks it gives him the edge.... maybe he's been told if he has the chiropractic treatments it will prevent problems... maybe it is a habit... maybe it is a little bit of everything. Whatever the reason, it doesn't seem to matter in regard to his performance.
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 5:26:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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Here's an interesting link about one reporters view. Of course this doesn't exactly support my point but it's interesting none the less.
[URL=http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020715fa_fact1]lance link[/URL]
SJ, I think it does effect his performance, but in a positive way. He has rituals, he sees things in a different context and, apparently (from the interview), he's a masochist.
Then there's this quote by Lance:
[QUOTE] Pain is temporary. It may last a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a year, but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it lasts forever.
[/QUOTE]jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 6:45:00 AM
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Jeep
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From: USA
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Jon-
Instead of being polite and soft-stepping-
Why don't you give us solid cites, evidence. quotes, anything you got, that we can verify------to support your assertion? And, BTW, JUST EXACTLY WHAT is your assertion? it seems to sorta change with your posts. ???
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 7:06:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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Jeep,
I don't think I've changed what I'm saying. I'm suggesting that Lance has chronic pain. Yes, it is a deduction and I've conceded that I could be wrong in my posts. I'm asserting that despite his pain he has attained a high level of physicality. I'm saying that fitness has not made his pain go away. I've stated that the last line of the journal I posted likely holds the answer to why he can despite his pain. I've chastised the preconceived notion of what chronic pain looks like. What have you been reading into my posts that makes you so resistant to what I'm saying?
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 7:24:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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Here's a link from the chiro's point of view.
[URL=http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/21/21/04.html]link[/URL]
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 8:14:00 AM
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srcase
Posts: 551
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From: Michigan
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Boy, this thread really never was about DVT's was it? :) I think it should be called the stream of consciousness thread or the miscellaneous thread....which is nice to have sometimes.
Jon, I understand precisely the point you are making. I think any rational person could deduce that someone who trains as hard as Lance would have pain, and mostly likely chronic pain. There is such thing as overtaining. Being fit is not directly proportional to being painfree by any stretch of the imagination. And training only has positive health benefits up to a certain point, after which it becomes a negative. I know there are a lot of Lance fans out there (I am neutral myself), but I don't see why Jon's point would be viewed as insulting or an attack against Lance. I hope it wasn't taken that way.
Sarah
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 8:28:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Sarah,
Thanks. Here's a link from long ago. It's just an abstract so it's short. But it is quite interesting.
[URL=http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-07/ns-wag072804.php]link[/URL]
jon
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 8:36:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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This is Lance and another DSC team member on the final sprint of stage 11 in Briancon, France. This was a total luck shot as they were coming probably 35-40 mph. I had no idea where he was in the pack, right or left side, and just blindly shot a series of 3 pictures using the sports selection on my camera as the pack went by. I ended up with this awesome shot. The Peleton came by about 10 minutes later. Notice that Lance wears his "Live Strong" braclet during the race.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/brennerak/LanceSprint2.jpg[/IMG]
Just minutes after he finished the stage, Ivan Basso came over to where we were standing and was speaking to his team over the mic in his helmet. I got a good picture of him too. He is Italian and currently in 2nd place as of today. The amazing thing about this picture is the fact that Basso doesn't even appear to be sweating despite having just finished 150KM mountain stage 10min ahead of the peleton. Amazing.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/brennerak/Basso4.jpg[/IMG]
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 8:49:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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We camped out just on the outside of Briancon and the next day (July 14th) we got up and hiked up to the road where stage 12 was coming through. Essentially we were able to watch them finish stage 11 and start stage 12. At about the 3KM mark of the stage I stood out in the middle of a traffic island with a buddy of mine and took some more photos. I was holding a medium size American flag when the Peleton came by. There were only 4 people on the traffic island including me and my buddy and it was really neat because the riders split left and right around us; half the peleton went right and the other left around us in the traffic island. Did anyone see me on TV? I forgot to have someone tape the stages for me.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/brennerak/peleton.jpg[/IMG]
I have to say, I do not particularly agree with ****** politics but the people were super friendly, generous, and good sports. My buddy was wearing his "Live Strong" bracelet and was asked by about 25 locals where he got it. They all wanted one.
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: Prelim Validation Prediction Rule for DVT - July 17, 2005 9:15:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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Jeep,
I was just a spectator and was not privledged enough to get a behind the scenes look. I did show up early when they were setting up the winners podium and had a friend take a picture of me standing in front of the winners block. I also watched them set up the finish line.
The next morning before stage 12 I walked over to the Discovery team bus and spoke with a guy who was one of Lance's personal message therapists. He said that there were 3 of them and that they work on him for several hours following each stage. Pretty cool.
I was seriously looking for Cheryl Crow but never saw her.
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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