|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 22, 2006 3:00:00 PM
|
|
|
rwillcott
Posts: 352
Joined: March 20, 2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
nxixcxk:
Sounds to me that the reason you are getting back pain is becasue of a lack of segmental control of your lumbar spine. And none of the exercies you've descirbed will train them (i.e. transverus abdominus and multifidus). And "strumming" your erector to assess for back pain is as useful as rubbing the abdomen to assess for an appendicitis.
Have a PT check some of the clinical prediction rules I mentioned and let us know if you meet any of them. If you do you could benefit from training the specific segmental muscles of the lumbar spine.
And "stomach vacuums" is not how to train these muscles. Sucking in forcefully recruits all of the muscles that you are trying to inhibit. Again, the use of a presuure biofeedback unit in addition to the skilled hands of a PT knowledgeable in this area is required.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 22, 2006 3:05:00 PM
|
|
|
srcase
Posts: 551
Joined: November 30, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
I agree tc. The Pilates exercises are very similar to the lumbar stabilization program I mentioned above (principles of recruitment are the same). I use Pilates in the clinic quite a bit and it's great for athletes because it can be modified to be very simple or very challenging. I like to describe it as intelligent exercise. But if you're looking for sore muscles, then it might not be your thing.
Sarah
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 22, 2006 3:06:00 PM
|
|
|
rwillcott
Posts: 352
Joined: March 20, 2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
In hindsight, my appendicitis analogy is not the greatest. How about "strumming" the erector to assess for LBP is as useful as floating the hands over the feet to assess for a brain tumor. (Although I'm sure there's a PT out there that does this)
There, that's better.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 22, 2006 8:40:00 PM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
Nx,
If you can do all those things you mentioned, one arm pushups etc., then weak abdominals are not your problem. Get it checked out.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 23, 2006 4:57:00 AM
|
|
|
Shill
Posts: 1056
Joined: February 13, 2003
From: Madison WI USA
Status: offline
|
Does anyone besides me think it is kind of odd that sucking in his gut (aka stomach vaccuum) hurts? Thats a bit weird, perhaps you should get this checked out by your doc. It never hurts to be safe.
_____________________________
Steve Hill PT
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 23, 2006 11:27:00 AM
|
|
|
nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
I would think that intense and repetitive ab contractions don't do anybody no good, ever, but they should not cause pain that does not seem to change.
Nx, go and see someone. Justfor your own benefit.
Nari
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 23, 2006 4:59:00 PM
|
|
|
Anonymous
Posts: 8
Joined: June 18, 2006
Status: offline
|
Hmph, you guys all sound convinced that I should seek non-online professional help.
I guess I'll call around and see if any PTs would like to take a look at it.
Thanks again for all the help, you guys really don't know how much this means to me :)
I'll be sure to update everyone on what the problem is!
Much love,
Nick
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 23, 2006 7:34:00 PM
|
|
|
Randy Dixon
Posts: 744
Joined: August 6, 2004
Status: offline
|
Shill,
It seemed weird to me too, if an otherwise healthy athletic person feels back pain from doing that, something is wrong. The problem is, most PT's won't really be able or willing to address this. If you go into most PT's clinics and say your back hurts only when you do certain exercises, they are going to look at you a little weird, and may not give you much real help. That's just my experience with many PT's dealing with basically asymptomatic clients. Those here may be more sports/fitness oriented and would love that type of challenge.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 24, 2006 4:41:00 PM
|
|
|
Anonymous
Posts: 8
Joined: June 18, 2006
Status: offline
|
The PT i used many years ago would fit that description. Although he was extremely knowledgeable, and in no way do I doubt his ability to cure different types of pain, he didn't really seem to care that much if I couldn't perform ab exercises without BP--but that could have been because he wanted to focus elsewhere first, I'm not sure.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 25, 2006 4:50:00 AM
|
|
|
rwillcott
Posts: 352
Joined: March 20, 2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
Randy,
As a PT, a patient like nxixcxk is exactly who I want to see in my clinic. A person who is active and would like to continue to stay active is a dream patient for myself and many other PT's. It sounds like a real biomechanical issue that a PT could address quite nicely. An hour assessment with a PT would be a great benefit for nxixcxk.
It can get a little tiring as a PT seeing chronic pain patients and people with underlying pscyhosocial issues etc. When I see a new patient booked into my schedule with back pain during exercise I get excited. I know there are many other PT's who feel the same way. These patients are the reason why many PT's chose the profession in the first place.
We are very willing and qualified to see a patient like nxixcxk and others with pain during exercise.
nxixcxk,
Go to a PT! I can assure you that their are many who would be more than happy to help you. Let us know how you make out!
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - June 27, 2006 12:40:00 PM
|
|
|
Anonymous
Posts: 8
Joined: June 18, 2006
Status: offline
|
Hey guys, quick update on what's happening.
I visited a physical therapist and he said I have a hinging motion at L5/S1, which is causing wear and tear at that place, segmental in particular. This is producing some discogenic symptoms, such as pain in the AM? (hard to read his writing here), and pain with spinal flexion. So we're doing motor control exercises to decrease the shear forces at L5/S1 and a distraction stretch to treat the disc.
That's basically from the PT's mouth.
Apparently, I am not able to flatten my low back against a wall when standing b/c of my tight hip flexors and inoperating glutes (i.e. the glutes aren't contracting like they should be). When I squat down and contract the quads, I am then able to flatten my lowback against the wall.
He said my abdominals were strong, just like you guys had suggested :) . However, when performing "closed chain--single leg extensions," I rotate my hips instead of keeping them parallel.
Closed chain leg extensions are where I am lying on my back, knees are flexed like this /\, with feet flat on floor, then I extend my hips by contracting my glutes/erectors, thus my butt is off the ground. Once I have this position, I am suppose to be able to extend one knee at a time w/o rotating the hips. He said this is an easy exercise when the proper muscles are working; however, for me it was very difficult.
Also, when lying prone and lifting my entire left leg 1/2'' off the ground, my right shoulder raises off the floor as well.
When he pressed on an intervertebral ligament (I think that's what he said it was) at L5/S1, there was significant tenderness there, almost as if it was bruised.
Anyhow. . .the diagnosis is a "little over my head," but I am going to work on the exercises he gave me and see what happens.
So I was given two exercises and then a stretch to help fill the disc with fluid. He said that doing this stretch should make my LB feel looser when I wake up in the morning.
He also suggested doing less weights on squats b/c my form tends to allow my back to lean too far forward and allows my hips to tilt too anteriorly at the bottom of my squat.
ANyhow, there it is.
Cheers!
Nick
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 20, 2006 5:57:00 PM
|
|
|
anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
Status: offline
|
who are the big names hwne it comes to low back pain mangaement and which are the must tread books in this subject?
Anoop
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 21, 2006 7:30:00 AM
|
|
|
drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
Must read - Craig Liebenson's text on Rehab of the spine. Contributors are everyone from McGill to McKenzie. It's very comprehensive.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 21, 2006 8:08:00 AM
|
|
|
PhilipT
Posts: 22
Joined: March 8, 2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Buddy T,
Great reply! Stu McGill is a great source for low back dysfunction. Especially for problems similar to this.
Randy,
I don't know who you are but offending the physical therapy profession or any other profession is very unprofessional.
Phil
_____________________________
"Any fool can know. The point is to understand." A. Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 21, 2006 5:39:00 PM
|
|
|
FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
Status: offline
|
although mcgill is an anotomist not a physical therapist, just a caveat to his work most of his stuff done on cadaver, not on live studies..lots of good theory, but not a whole picture, that's all
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 22, 2006 1:37:00 AM
|
|
|
PhilipT
Posts: 22
Joined: March 8, 2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
FLA,
McGill's studies are perfomed on live subjects and he himself had electronic wires inside his own muscles to study the deep abdominal muscles during varying positions. I have heard him speak on 6 different occassions. He is a wealth of knowledge whose research information I apply in a clinic setting on a daily basis with excellent outcomes.
Phil
_____________________________
"Any fool can know. The point is to understand." A. Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 22, 2006 3:30:00 AM
|
|
|
FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
Status: offline
|
like i said, very knowledgeable, but doesn't have the whole picture. I am glad you use his theory, i think most people should read his stuff, however, it is not, nor is anyone's theory, so bulletproof and be all end all that you should ignore other theories. just another tool in the toolbox is what I am/was saying. He has very definite theories of which muscles he believes are the stabilizers and which specific muscles need to be trained and doing which exercises etc, but they are not always applicable. And I am pretty positive, but not as sure as you seem, that he used surface emg not deep probe electrodes, which have significant flaws, as does any emg study. Does high amplitude of signal equal high recruitment or poorly recruited muscles, shouldn't well recruited muscles use less electricity so to speak since they recruit in a fashioned and organized manner? I am sure emg look very interesting in parkinson's patients, doesn't mean they are using their muscles volitionally or controlled udring a specific movement. I just want to say that not one theory is great on its own, and though you advise mcgill, which i think is a great resource, i just want people to beware that some of his theory has holes in it merely based on the fact that it based heavily on cadavers and emg studies alone. There is no real gold standard, so with any study you'd discuss limitations, it is not someone bashing your bible, so pipe down a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 22, 2006 4:15:00 AM
|
|
|
drbuddy
Posts: 429
Joined: July 30, 2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
Heh, actually he did use deep muscle probes. In his book, he even explains the different sensations he felt as the various layers were punctured.I beleive the surface layers elicited a sharp pinch, then a burning for the deeper layers, then a very deep ache below that.
He doesnt really believe that one set of muscles stabilize versus another. He is more focused on grooving motion patterns versus training individual muscles. He'd rather see someone have a strong functional low back versus someone not very functional with superman TrA.
He also focuses on spine sparing strategies and exercises. Most of his research has been done finding exercises that activate the intrinsic stabilizers while avoiding excessive stress on the discs and joints.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Abdominal Exercises not Involving LB - August 22, 2006 5:20:00 AM
|
|
|
PhilipT
Posts: 22
Joined: March 8, 2006
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Buddy T,
Well said. He does groove motor patterns and emphasizes spine sparing training. Again, I have attended a number of his lectures and he has explained his findings very thoroughly with the research to back up his claims and "theories".
FLA,
I do not have a specific "bible" I prescribed to. I just know what works well in the clinic and what doesn't. "Pipe" down. I reserve the right to change my mind at any time it applies. So what ever works best I will use. I wish you the best in your abilities in providing PT. I hope all PTs' have the same passion for their profession as we do!
Phil
_____________________________
"Any fool can know. The point is to understand." A. Einstein
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.078
|
Printable Version
