Tight and Weak Muscles

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anoopbal -> Tight and Weak Muscles (May 16, 2005 5:56:00 PM)
Which one do you think is the muscle which seems to be always tight for normal individual? And which is is the most weakest? Or which muscle should be the first choice when it comes to strengthening or stretching? Any inputs appreciated Anoop

Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 16, 2005 9:24:00 PM)
Anoop, Tough questions. I don't think we have a good grasp of what is normal. I point you to the "Hip range of motion and low back pain" thread. In soldiers I commonly see weak hip abductors. I attribute this to our mission which most typically involves moving rapidly in the sagital plane i.e. running, road marching, buddy rushes. We hardly ever do any training that requires frontal plane motion. We run a lot in the Army. I commonly see other weaknesses too but will wait to see what others say.

Sebastian Asselbergs -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 17, 2005 2:55:00 AM)
I do not treat normal individuals - I have NO idea what that animal looks like... (Certainly not the one looking at me in the mirror in the morning). I deal with individuals who occasionally present with restricted motion that seems to be related to their complaint. That's all. Some very healthy shoulder patients have trouble long-sitting because of of their hamstrings. Are these tight? Not for them. Is it a precursor to injury? Not sure at all. Loss of range in a shoulder? Haven't seen one caused by tight muscles. Neuromuscular causes? Probably. Come to think of it: what is your definition of a tight muscle? And of a weak muscle? I have tons of weak muscles (my own definition: I cannot lift as much soil or as many patio stones as I used to 15 years ago).... Just messin' around :-)

Randy Dixon -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 17, 2005 9:02:00 PM)
I would go with Alex's answer. Hip abductors seem to be the one most commonly weak. In fact, the gluteals often seem to be weak in people, and if you're a Janda fan than you'll notice the crossed syndromes, with tight hamstrings, etc. I don't worry about training specific tight/weak/strong muscles. I do worry about training fundamental movement patterns that may address those muscles.

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 18, 2005 5:35:00 AM)
[QUOTE]In soldiers I commonly see weak hip abductors. I attribute this to our mission which most typically involves moving rapidly in the sagital plane i.e. running, road marching, buddy rushes. We hardly ever do any training that requires frontal plane motion. We run a lot in the Army. [/QUOTE]But dont you think most of them, not only the army, ever do motion in the frontal plane? I think Randy's comment confirms it. Randy: If glutea,s are weak, I am guessing it canbe mainly doue to the hip flexors being tight? I have notced most people have tight hip flexors due to all the sitiing and sigittal plane movements. I have read that strengthening weak muscles can create more problmes unless you stretch the tight agonist muscles. Is it true? ( think by Janda) Anoop

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 18, 2005 5:40:00 AM)
[QUOTE] do not treat normal individuals - I have NO idea what that animal looks like... (Certainly not the one looking at me in the mirror in the morning).[/QUOTE]Same here. Anybody normal here, raise their hands :D Good points, Sebastain. I have no better answer since you all are way ahead of me in this field. I agree that everything cannot be pinned down to tight and weak muscles. But I am sure they sometimes do contribute to suboptimal joint allignments and compensations. Anoop

Barrett -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 19, 2005 1:45:00 AM)
Joint alignment and muscular strength are unrelated. See "A Big Mistake" on my site. If anyone knows of a study refuting this, please send it along. Isn't it time we got rid of this myth?

Randy Dixon -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 19, 2005 6:18:00 AM)
Barrett, I think we would need a little more explanation to even begin. My guess is that you mean "joint alignment" in the postural sense. To use an exaggeration to the ridiculous, a person who is bent forward 90 deg. at the hip and unable to straighten isn't going to have as high a vertical jump as someone who has full range, there is an optimal movement pattern, which is the same as saying their is an optimal dynamic posture. I'm presenting that as a demonstration of what type of clarification is needed to respond, not as an argument. I know you've spent far too much thought on this to insult your intelligence.

jma -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 19, 2005 8:34:00 AM)
Hello, Here is an article in reference to Dr. Janda's take on tonic and phasic muscles. Too bad they are not online. Janda V. On the concept of postural control muscles and posture in man. Aus J. Physiothe 1983; 29: 83-84.

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 21, 2005 9:46:00 PM)
So I bought this video from Gray Cook and finished viweing the first tape out of three. In the first one, he analysis the deep squat and reccomends functional exercises to fix problems.These exercies are as expected to be continued for a few weeks to see a change. But I can make take somone with problmes with deep squat and make a change in couple of minutes. I use the contract relax technique for stretching and most of the people I have tested and worked on see an IMMEDIATE improvemnt. The first post I made here regarding my client who couldnt keep his back straight was basically due to tight glenohumeral joint. I had the same problem. Did a few min of stretching of the GH and low back, and Abs using PNF and he feels much better and erect then ever before. So my quesytion is do we have to do all those functional exercises for so long to fix the poblem when we can always stretch and get the same result? I hope Jason would chip in here. But, at the same time, I am not sure if without reducating the muscles with movements the stretched muscle might go back to its previous tone when requested to activate in a particular movement seqnce. Thanks Anoop

apolipo -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 23, 2005 6:45:00 AM)
I have had numerous pts. in the past with obvious "abnormal postures" (pelvic tilts, adducted scapula, FHP/FSP, etc.). In all of these pts., improvements in muscle length and strength and joint mobility/ROM were made. Rarely did posture substantially change. Whether pain changed was variable. Did I fail to "re-educate" the pts. neuromuscular system? Did I fail to "feed the homunculi" as Butler would put it? A more basic question I have been pondering is "Can I change a person's posture?" or "Should I aim to change a person's posture". Posture is generally unconcious. How often does the average person think about it? When they do think about it, how soon is their attention turned to something else? Maybe we should forget about static posture. Let's face it, there is nothing static about posture. We should spend more time assessing movement patterns. Should we try to make them "normal"? Or should we try to make them functional and effortless? This will be unique for each person, requiring time and attention from the therapist and dedication from the pt. The practical application of this idea is not easy and I will admit I am far from figuring it out. Don't get me wrong, though. I am not advocating eliminating muscle stretching or joint mobs. They do have their place and, honestly, I use them everyday. We need a better understanding of what each pt. needs, rather than what we want to give them. Consider my ramblings done. mike t

JLS_PT_OCS -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 24, 2005 3:36:00 AM)
Mike, good point on what they need vs what we want to give them. With so many problems, even for those with good evidence to guide interventions, what treatments patients receive have more to do with the provider they see than anything else. Sad but true. Anoop- I have read Cook's work and enjoy it, I find it useful in clinical practice as well. You are not describing "posture" but the fundamental biomechanics of a person's movement. For these, we can establish optimal patterns, as Randy suggests, and identify suboptimal patterns, especially those which may contribute to a person's pain state. It is our job not to excessively choreograph our patient's movement, but to use our knowledge and experience to help the person find a comfortable painfree movement that is closer to an optimal pattern. It seems to me that is what Cook is recommending. I am sure that anytime we touch a person manually, and/or ask them to repeat a movement, that the movement quality may improve. Is that due to practice, due to motor planning, or your stretching type intervention? I'm sure I don't know. A better question would be, "does this newfound good form persist to the next visit or does it fade within a day like many temporary interventions?" I don't think it's wrong to do that, I just think that if we are trying to improve movement quality we should focus on the motor retraining component. Certainly such stretching things you suggest may be helpful in the short term while you are working on his movements. This has little to do with posture or with individually tight/weak muscles, however. J

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 24, 2005 7:10:00 AM)
Thanks Mike and Jason, I think you are right. Best to fix movement with movement. This is what I little I have learned so far.Correct me if I am wronng. The movement patterns exhibited can be both flexibilty and mobility issue. For instance, in the hurdle step when you flex one knee towards the hip, the other leg goes back a bit to balance the center of gravity. So if the glutes and hams are tight, it wont go far back enough to let the line of gravity fall below your feet.So you might have to lean forward to lower the CG. In the case of mobilty, if someone does not know the differnce between hip flexion and spine flexion, he will bend his back ( instead of flexing his hip) when asked to do a deep squat. I belive this is more a problem which can only be corrected thorugh re-educating the motor pattern. Does that make any sense. I guess that.s the reason why I see a change when I make them stretch butthe change doesnt last that long bcos I dint reducate the motor patterns. Anoop

apolipo -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 24, 2005 8:38:00 AM)
Anoop, Your statements certainly make sense. Tight muscles can restrict movements, leading to suboptimal movement patterns. Also, these suboptimal movement patterns can be more of a motor planning or motor memory problem, rather than purely because of tight muscles. By the way, as I was typing this note, I remembered something I recently read in Shacklock's "Clinical Neurodynamics" (great book by the way). His way of describing tests, movements, and pain levels is normal vs. abnormal and optimal vs. suboptimal. In other words, a test is not positive or negative, but normal or abnormal. Also, a movement pattern can be optimal or suboptimal. For a given person, the movement pattern they are using may be optimal for them. If their next door neighbor were to use the same movement pattern, it might be suboptimal. Helps you keep in mind the infinite variety of human movement and our inate ability to adapt. Now if we could just convince our pts. of this. mike t

Yogi -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 24, 2005 12:26:00 PM)
Good point, Mike. Alot of abnormal/suboptimal patterns are normal/optimal adaptations or responses. There are ranges of course, the out of limits range is often arbitrary, outmoded, or outright wrong. I used to see it not always but often in Cerebral Palsy: if you had the same limitations, you would have the same patterns. If you had the same environment and were treated the same, you would have the same or similar behavioral responses. So the individuals were actually normally different, not abnormal, and I tried to educate both professionals and direct care staff to that effect. Abnormal tends to sometimes be dehumanized, and that should be avoided. I guess the point is that sometimes it not only pt's that need convincing, but everyone.

apolipo -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 25, 2005 7:45:00 AM)
Good point on CP. I currently have 2 pts. with CP and both demo significant compenstations to walk and move from one position to another. In all reality, they need these compensations and if I were to take them away, they wouldn't be able to function. Why would I do such a thing? mike t

Yogi -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 25, 2005 11:13:00 AM)
Right, Mike. You would only try to do that if you could change the NEED for the compensation. Only way you CAN affect the compensation, wouldn't you agree. Kind of reminds me of the old saying about what you can and cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference.

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (May 25, 2005 4:38:00 PM)
So I get this book called Walk Your self Well from Sherry Brourman mainly bsoc someone in this forum reccommended. She, in contrast to what been said in this thread, bases all the injuries and pain to be derived from the way you walk. I spevcifically remember one of these lines, " The eye opening truth is that what we feel familiar maybe exactly what causing pain". I recall Jason(I assume) writing about how he changed the gait and is feeling much better. Anoop

anoopbal -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (June 29, 2005 8:58:00 AM)
So I was reading an article about posture and muscle strengthening.It says about doing too much bench press can strengthen you adductors and make it tight and hence cause bad posture. So I was thingking why do people always think automatically a strong muscle to be tight? I think a strong muscle can also be in a relaxed state if it is stretched. I think strength and tightness in a muscle is confusing. I am assuming the posture you maintain in ceratin muscle id due to the "Tone" in that muscle which has more to do with neural factors. Antbody care to comment Anoop

Jon Newman -> Re: Tight and Weak Muscles (June 29, 2005 9:23:00 AM)
Hi Anoop, For sure there is a difference between tone and material stiffness. Wouldn't physics dictate that as the cross sectional area of a muscle increases its resistance to lengthening would increase also (for a standardized length and tone of muscle)? jon

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