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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - June 29, 2005 10:38:00 AM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]Wouldn't physics dictate that as the cross sectional area of a muscle increases its resistance to lengthening would increase also (for a standardized length and tone of muscle)?
[/QUOTE]Not sure, Jon. But can we say if a muscle is getting stronger it is always tight or there is always a greater tone in that muscle?
Anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - June 29, 2005 10:46:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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No I don't think we can say that, but now we're back at the operational definition of strength (or 'stronger').
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - June 30, 2005 3:33:00 AM
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anoopbal
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Jon, do you think that you can explain it a bit further?
Another thing I been thinking is that usually strengthening the opposing muscle group is often reccoemnded for postural fixing because the opposing musle group is usually weak. But Janda has clearly stated that strengthening an inhibited muscle without stretching out the tight muscle can only worsen problems. I think this goes along with the comments that strength and tightness need not e related. A strong muscle can also be stretched to normal without losing any strength.
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - June 30, 2005 6:35:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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For a given length of muscle, I would expect an increase in resistance to passive stretch with an increase in cross sectional area. If a muscle is longer (more sarcomeres in series) then it is not truly stretching when going through some degree more of range of motion, it is simply using its inherent length.
Tying this to strength: If strength is simply the ability to produce more force then an improved recruitment/timing of muscular contraction without an increase in cross sectional area of the muscle would count and I would not expect an increase in stiffness with this scenario. If, however, strength is defined by an increase in cross sectional area of a muscle, then I would expect an increase in stiffness of that muscle for a given length of that muscle--all tone being equal.
I don't know what the physiologic limits of maintaining a length/strength (however you define strength) relationship as one manipulates these variables. I would imagine that it would be somewhat dependent on what joint/what kind of lever the muscle is a part of or maybe more importantly what its antagonist is part of.
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 1, 2005 9:44:00 AM
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anoopbal
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Jut like to know what you guys opinion.
What do you think about strength coaches writing articles about injury prevention. I know few people who have no background in physical therapy wiritng articles about postural fixing and injury prevention and how muscle imbalance causes injury.
After writing and reading the posts here,I strongly belive they really dont understand the depth of their propblem they are discusiing. If they had, they would never dare to write an artcile even if it is to help people.
Anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 4, 2005 7:36:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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Anoop,
I think you answered your own question about tight muscle=strong muscle when you mentioned Janda's theories. In his theory it depends on the type of muscle, some muscles tighten as they become weaker.
PT's are not the only knowledgeable people in the field of exercise science, there are good scientific experts out there and some not so good, just like in anything else.
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 5, 2005 1:41:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Anoop, there is ample discussion elsewhere (an old thread here) that calls into question the status of a "tight" muscle. Is it a habitual neural output to the muscle, keeping it in a more cotracted state? Is it a short "cocoon" of enveloping myofascial structure of the fibrils?
If it is the first, activating (or dis-inhibiting) the antagonist may well inhibit the output to the "short" muscle and allow it to lengthen; if it is the second, long sustained stretches are needed. Do not forget that Janda's comments on that subject are only that: comments - no specific evidence has ever been given. His contentions on phasic and tomic muscles are not as nicely clear-cut as he initially proposed (I was partially trained by Janda and his proteges). I have great concerns about "typing" muscles along his theoretical divisions - there is just NOT enough evidence.
The whole issue of postural muscles being dysfunctional is tenuous (in the general population), and one may need to look at neural patterns more than anything when trying to affect body-motion. See Mike T. and Barrett's posts on this.
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 7, 2005 3:30:00 AM
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anoopbal
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Thanks Randy and Sebastain
To behonest, I amjust really confused. You guys know too much (;-
I always hear people talk about tightness and shortness and quote Janda. And now you say there is no evidene to back up concepts of Janda. My question are there concepts which are proven or all treatment mogdalities are just theortical models? And even if there is a cause dont you think its quite tough to prove it scitntifically?
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 7, 2005 5:04:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Many people take Janda's theories as gospel truth, when in fact they are not.
He did provide great new ways at looking at muscle and movement dysfunction, and that stimulated the thought and research that has led us here, so he is an important figure.
But like any theory, it is rarely perfect when first postulated, but has kernels of truth. It is the followon experience and research that attempts to identify those kernels.
And yes, lots of people attempt to write about musculoskeletal pain and injury prevention who are not qualified and/or do not know what they are talking about. But I have met far too many great ones that didn't fit in the preconceived notion of what profession they "should" be from, to judge someone based on the letters after their name, but they PT, MD, CSCS, ATC, etc.
Certainly many advances and theories come from people who didn't have the "right" letters after their name also.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 8, 2005 2:41:00 PM
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srcase
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Anoop,
To answer your original question, according to Janda and others, those muscles prone to tightness are primarly the tonic (postural) muscles: SCM, scalenes, levator scap, pec major, upper trap, quadratus lumborum, back extensors, hip flexors, piriformis, short hip adductors, hamstrings, and plantar flexors of the ankle.
Muscles prone to weakness are generally phasic in nature: short cervical flexors, lower trap, rhomboids, serratus anterior, subscapularis, rectus abdominis, obliques, gluteus maximus, medius, and minimus; vastus medialis and lateralis, tibialis anterior, peroneals.
Weak muscles are not necessary long and tight muscles are not necessarily strong. Janda does advocate stretching of the shortened muscles before strengthening of the weakened ones.
You were wondering why PNF type stretching seems to work immediately to improve the movement pattern. I think this is because PNF-type "stretching' is actually neurological: stimulation of proprioceptors, and reciprocal inhibition of antagonistic muscles. Once these proprioceptors have been reawakened, it is advantageous to carry over the new pattern of movement in a functional exercise. So, I think both "stretching" and functional exercise are effective if used in this way.
Sarah
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 9, 2005 7:16:00 AM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]You were wondering why PNF type stretching seems to work immediately to improve the movement pattern. I think this is because PNF-type "stretching' is actually neurological: stimulation of proprioceptors, and reciprocal inhibition of antagonistic muscles. Once these proprioceptors have been reawakened, it is advantageous to carry over the new pattern of movement in a functional exercise. So, I think both "stretching" and functional exercise are effective if used in this way.[/QUOTE]I was thinking the same. Gray cook does stretching in a functional way. He imtegrates stretching or mobilty training in a pattern which is similar to the pattern we are trying to improve. I think its the same reason why people can squat much better when they have thier heels raised. They just imroved their ankle mobilty.
But the other thing is that stretching individual muscle can only work upto a point or to certain muscles. For example, most people when they deep squat, their torse leans foward and therby losing spine stability. Most will often blame oit on hip flexor flexibilty. But this is not a flexibity issue which can be resolved by jst stretching. This is largely due to the hip flexors firing a tad before or at the same time as the abs and therby making it tight. This is a cordination problem whicg can only be resolved by teaching the brain not to fire the hip flexors before the abs or as cook's says dissociating the upper body from the lower body.
PNF stretching might have an acute benift but its only an acute benift bcos we never reducated the motor program which is the root cause.
anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 9, 2005 1:54:00 PM
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srcase
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I don't see how having tight hip flexors would limit a squat, maybe tight gastrocs, hip extensors, or back extensors. I think I understand the point you are trying to make though, with most movements being a coordination/timing issue more than a flexibility/strength issue.
I think PNF can reeducate the motor program, but for motor learning to occur, the movement pattern must be repeated in exercises.
Sarah
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 9, 2005 2:07:00 PM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]I don't see how having tight hip flexors would limit a squat, maybe tight gastrocs, hip extensors, or back extensors[/QUOTE]Most people tend to lean forward and are not able to keepo the torso straigh if they have a tigh hip flexors. But as I said I am now thinking that it was more of a tightness due to the altered firing pattern than a tight or shortened muscle.
I was watching the tapes this morning. Gray Cook emphasizing stretching but he doesnt have any in his videos because you can lern that from any book or other sources and also bcos he is emphasizing the cordination issues.
The one line I remember is that "stretching is great but functional exrcies are the exercises which make these stretches "stick". I that pretty much shows the imprtance of stretching and functional exercieses.
One question I have is that will these patterns be erased if we dont carry over these paterns in other daily moevemts like when we sit ( we are in hip flexion) and if we tend to stoop there is spine flexion. This can reducate the brain to flex the spine whenever there is hip flexion and this is what we dont want in a squat.
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Tight and Weak Muscles - July 11, 2005 4:12:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I think the exercise carries over well, especially if we stop thinking of them as "exercises" and more as ways to reeducate the body to move in a more efficient way.
I squat the same whether I'm sitting in a chair, petting my kitty cat, or I have a barbell on my shoulders.
It's helpful to present it to clients/patients this way also.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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