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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 21, 2005 2:56:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Thanks, Jon, I'll check that out.
Luke, no problem. I think you and I must be the only two people on the planet that can disagree on issues of diet and not get mad at each other!
The old saw about not discussing Politics and Religion may have to be expanded to cover Diet as well...
:)
I think you are COMPLETELY right in that people are frequently so philosophically invested in their diet, that they are unwilling to change it, even with compelling evidence that they should. One has only to see the enormous rise in chronic diseases such as diabetes to see this...
Diane-
It is interesting that you mention the political and violence-based tribal structure that is implicit in the act of eating flesh. Many in the Vegan/Vegetarian community (myself included) see meat eating as more than a dietary issue, but a basic cultural and moral problem that goes to the foundation of a society. It is more about dominance and aggression than about nutrition. There is even an interesting feminist connection - for an interesting read, try "The Sexual Politics of Meat" - interesting book.
But these issues are a little beyond the scope of this thread...
The political and moral issues are not something I like to proselytize on, they aren't appropriate for a medical discussion board, and nobody likes a self-important superior moralizer...I'll keep the soapbox put up for now...
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 21, 2005 4:49:00 AM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Jason,
[QUOTE]Many in the Vegan/Vegetarian community (myself included) see meat eating as more than a dietary issue, but a basic cultural and moral problem that goes to the foundation of a society. It is more about dominance and aggression than about nutrition. There is even an interesting feminist connection - for an interesting read, try "The Sexual Politics of Meat" - interesting book. [/QUOTE]I too, find this side of life very intriguing; perhaps meat eating is a cultural "trickle down" behavior that has been "aped" by the less dominant members.. then we got caught in a genetically driven "need" for meat.. (not all of us, just those of us who are unhealthy anymore if we try to be vegan.) Car dependence fits in too I think..from the perspective of energy consumption at least. (I'm seriously considering selling mine.. I've pretty much weaned away from it over the last few years.) Both cows and cars are huge energy sucks on the planet.
Successive awakenings of self can help to free one from the insidious "trickle down" of a culture's dictates on behavior and consumption, which can have a direct effect on one's personal heath. Collectively, it has a direct effect on future generations' health (or lack of health.)
Really, I don't think we are totally out of bounds speaking of the effect of culture on health, on eating, on behavior, or on pain. It all ties together. Our whole therapy world is a culture of sorts, where we operate from worlds of thought.. Each forum here represents such a world of thought. Each one stimulates yet more awareness and examination of presumptions and beliefs.
While I appreciate your effort to keep your soapbox out of sight, I think a forum where soapboxes are formally allowed would be an OK place to discuss these parallel matters, and collectively begin to help one another wake up from cultural coma. Another forum I visit has a "chitchat" room, another one has a "rubbish cube" where the most lively of non-related (to the purpose of the forum) discussions take place, promoting deeper and simultaneously more lateral thinking.
Perhaps RehabEdge could provide such a forum for us! :)
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 21, 2005 5:06:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Nice post, well said.
And agreed on all points...
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 25, 2005 1:38:00 PM
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anoopbal
Posts: 124
Joined: May 3, 2005
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Jason could you post the studies whch shows how lean meat consumtion is not totally safe as thoughtor what do they think is wrong with the studies which shows lean meat to be ok? I am definetly interested in this book and I am goona get one soon.
Thanks a lot
Anoop
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 28, 2005 6:24:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Anoop-
Don't have the book with me today, it's at home. The studies are clearly delineated, linking animal protein consumption to rates of chronic disease. Both animal studies/basic science and epidemiological studies.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 28, 2005 9:07:00 AM
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anoopbal
Posts: 124
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Could post the studies when youy get time Jason.
Eur J Nutr. 2000 Apr;39(2):71-9. Related Articles, Links
Dietary lean red meat and human evolution.
Mann N.
Department of Food Science, RMIT University, Melbourne, VIC, Australia. neil.mann@rmit.edu.au
Scientific evidence is accumulating that meat itself is not a risk factor for Western lifestyle diseases such as cardiovascular disease, but rather the risk stems from the excessive fat and particularly saturated fat associated with the meat of modern domesticated animals. In our own studies, we have shown evidence that diets high in lean red meat can actually lower plasma cholesterol, contribute significantly to tissue omega-3 fatty acid and provide a good source of iron, zinc and vitamin B12. A study of human and pre-human diet history shows that for a period of at least 2 million years the human ancestral line had been consuming increasing quantities of meat. During that time, evolutionary selection was in action, adapting our genetic make up and hence our physiological features to a diet high in lean meat. This meat was wild game meat, low in total and saturated fat and relatively rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA). The evidence presented in this review looks at various lines of study which indicate the reliance on meat intake as a major energy source by pre-agricultural humans. The distinct fields briefly reviewed include: fossil isotope studies, human gut morphology, human encephalisation and energy requirements, optimal foraging theory, insulin resistance and studies on hunter-gatherer societies. In conclusion, lean meat is a healthy and beneficial component of any well-balanced diet as long as it is fat trimmed and consumed as part of a varied diet.
This is one study which talks about lean meat. What is your take on this? I discuused the the China study and they almost killed me for talking for vegetarians. But luckily I came out alive :)
Thanks
Anoop
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Re: Nutrition and Chronic Disease - June 29, 2005 4:01:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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The China Study does a very good job in addressing the fat vs meat situation. I think the reaction you received about arguing the Veg point of view goes to what Luke was saying about people being philosophically invested in their diet.
The way I feel, if the data goes the other way in the future, I will change my position on lean meats(scientifically that is, I still won't personally eat the dead flesh of other animals).
And as I've said before, I don't think there's enough data to really make a case that "Luke's diet" (rich in complex carbs, fruits and veggies, and including some lean meat) is worse or better than mine (athletic vegan diet with all protein from plant sources).
So if this study is arguing that there is nothing wrong with including some lean meat in an otherwise varied diet (that's the thing, isn't it?), then I don't really have a convincing rebut as far as data/ outcomes /epidemiology.
My arguments for those with the healthy diet are essentially basic science stuff about animal protein, and the point that VERY FEW people truly have this varied diet that includes complex carbs, grains, and veggies with some lean meats. You may have that, and Luke may have that, but not too many others do.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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