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Most common training mistakes
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Most common training mistakes - April 15, 2005 11:48:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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Ok, along with the training myths, what are the most common training mistakes we see? I think to get more out of it we should have things we see commonly, things we see poor trainers doing and things that good trainers, or ourselves, have done wrong.
First, the thing that bothers me the most at the gym is training muscle imbalances. 90% of the guys I see at the gym have rounded shoulders, weak legs, and their whole posterior chain is negelected. It has become so common that I think for many it is the ideal look.
My peeves for trainers is those that train for looks. That's just personal, I see it as a waste of an admirable amount of effort. My other one is the adoption of the latest fad and making everything that. Doing dumbell curls while sitting on a stability ball is NOT stability, core, or functional training.
My personal weakness, similar to the one above. I get an idea about something, usually a fairly complex idea and everything revolves around that. When you're thinking green, everthing looks green. Another related weakness, I get so disgusted by the latests fad I sometimes throw out the baby with the bath water just because I am irked. And one that I think is shared by many, training people for my goals and attitudes rather than theirs.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 16, 2005 4:09:00 PM
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jma
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Inadequate warm up and then going max on exercises (i.e bench press)
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 16, 2005 7:25:00 PM
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ptdan23
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The difference in upper body and lower body strength. You see these guys in the gym that have a huge upper body, totally ripped and then you see their legs and they are so small that they look like they would break under the weight of their upper body. I think the mistake is that they get so focused on their upper body they neglect to strengthen their lower body and look very unproportional.
Dan, PT.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 16, 2005 10:26:00 PM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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This area is not my strongest, but I am willing to learn...
With the lat pull down, I see a lot of guys in the gym pulling down behind their neck. It appears to me that this just sets you up for impingement and does not provide a better advantage than pulling down in front of the neck. What is the rationale for performing this exercise behind the neck?
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 16, 2005 10:37:00 PM
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ptdan23
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I agree w/ Alex. Also, the amt of stress that performing the lat pulldown behind the head puts on the cervical spine.
Dan, PT.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 16, 2005 11:57:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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I believe the most common rationale is that you isolate the lats more, using less of the other pulling muscles. I wouldn't advise it.
I'll add a tip for free though. Many people, especially guys with big biceps, find that they don't use their lats when doing pulldowns. Have them shrug their shoulder up first, then push them down and maintain that while doing the pulldown, this usually allows them to feel the muscles they want to use. Of course, you can do other exercises as well, but it's a good kinesthetic awareness exercise.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 17, 2005 6:04:00 AM
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jma
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Training heavy on upper body and conditioning lower body only
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 17, 2005 4:53:00 PM
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srcase
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I just evaluated a patient who injured his neck and shoulder doing those lat pulldowns behind his head....big risk.
As for training, I agree with the fad thing..especially "core" training. At my gym, I've taken the Core classes with multiple instructors and they consider it anything from top of shoulders to bottom of hips. The amount of variation in this classes is crazy....everything from ballet and Pilates to bent-over rows, stability ball, medicine ball work to yoga standing postures. I guess anything that involves the trunk in any way can be considered "core". No wonder consumers are confused about this term.
Other training mistakes: leaning all over the cardio machines to go faster, harder and longer (what good does that do except to wipe sweat all over it?); pulling on the neck when crunching (and only cruching to train abs); arching the low back when doing pushups (women do this all the time); locking the knees in deadlifts......need I go on???
Sarah
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 18, 2005 2:14:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Big training mistake is not really establishing the GOALS of the training. Is it for fitness in sports? Better health? Looking good on the beach? For cross training purposes?
Too many trainers are not spending time to establish the exact goals and just toss general protocols at customers. Much like some practitioners.....:-)
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 18, 2005 7:23:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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Yeah, I have seen a lot of the aformentioned mistakes several times over. I certainly agree with Randy's first post in that fundamentally, the aesthetically-centered amongst us perform exercises in isolation. I believe there to be a elementary flaw in the concept of focusing on "muscles" instead of "movement". The corollary to this is muscular imbalance and dysfunctional movement. Many people lack adequade local stabilization endurance to perform many of the global muscle exercises properly. Here are some of the others I see in terms of specific exercises:
1) Lat pulldowns behind the head (as addressed already)
2) Using momentum while lifting.
3) Performing exercises in extreme spinal flexion or extension
4) Lateral raises beyond shoulder level in an internally rotated position
5) Hip extension work for the "glutes" (usually becomes a beck extensor exercise)
6) Anchoring feet under a surface while doing crunches (mostly a hip flexor exercise)
7) Squats - take your pick on this one; too much spinal flexion, knees come way beyond the toes, too much trunk forward flexion, knees knock on the descent
8) Valsalva manuever
9) Overuse of machines
10) Bringing the bar to the chest and bouncing it back up on the bench press
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 19, 2005 2:12:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Good posts...
Here comes another tangent...
On the lat pulldown behind the head, I look at it this way:
Some people have the inherent shoulder flexibility that they can accomplish this without compromising themselves biomechanically. So for those people (and if you know your kinesiology well, you can spot them from across the room) I don't think it's a big issue.
But most people just don't have the flexibility to do that.
Which brings me to my real point: if anyone is strong enough to do lat pulldowns with a significant weight (and we all know how easy it is to compensate with trunk flexion or extension), then they should be doing pullups or chinups instead. There is no rationale for a healthy athlete or weightlifter to perform lat pulldowns. I recently read this from Mike Boyle, and I think he makes a very good point.
Lat pulldowns should only be used for those with a poor strength-to-bodyweight ratio.
I have found, personally and among patients/clients, that learning to do the chinup or pullup develops upper back and lat strength far quicker and to a greater extent than the pulldowns ever could.
Modifications like changing or mixing grip styles and using a towel on one side give this exercise almost limitless variation.
You can use machines like the gravitron, or even better, just loop a strong piece of elastic exercise band on the chinup bar, and place one knee in the band so it pulls up at the anterior ankle. That's all the assistance you need, and it didn't cost a thing (well, maybe a couple bucks).
coreconcepts-
I'm not sure the valsalva is always a bad thing. If you refer to it's overuse with any effort as we have all seen in the gym, then I must heartily agree. But for maximal lifts, I don't think we have a consensus that it's a bad thing by nature.
Kind of like the weight belt, eh?
:)
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 19, 2005 9:46:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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Hi Jason,
On the Lat pulldown issue - I agree, there are some people (albeit a very small percentage) that can anatomically do behind-the-neck pulldowns uncompromised. I rarely, however see this kind of medial rotator flexibility. Further, everyone I have seen that performs the exercise this way puts their neck in excessive flexion while straining to pull the bar down - just doesn't look right. Same can be said for the bench press - I have seen a few dudes with extremely large chest circumferences and short arms who wouldn't even break the parallel if they brought the bar down to their chest. As for the chin-up argument - I agree, the amount of stabilization required to perform a proper chin-up is far more effective. I do think, however that the pulldown has merit as an adjunct exercise (perhaps with different bar grips) even if one is strong enough to perform chins. Moreover, some periodization phases of programs call for higher repetitions, which the lifter may not be able to accomplish with the chin-up.
As for valsalva - good footnote. I agree that in those extreme cases in which the lifter knows what he/she is doing - it is fine. THe same argument can be made then for using a bit of sway while executing the last couple of difficult reps - as long as the body is properly prepared for such a movement.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 19, 2005 10:55:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I don't think the ability to do behind-the-neck pulldowns is strictly a medial rotator flexibility issue.
I think it has more to do with Tx extension, scapular retraction, and external rotation range of movement of the shoulder - which in that position is far more determined by capsular laxity than by anything else.
Though certainly the commonly tight pectorals and subscapularis muscles we see can contribute!
I totally agree with your statement of how many people do that exercise! I had to laugh, how many of those people have we seen in the gym? :)
That qualifies as a training mistake!!
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 20, 2005 12:08:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
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Well, if we're going to allow exceptions then I'm going to pick core's #2 allowing momentum. How else do we train for high velocity movements? Even if we can eliminate momentum is it a good thing to do given SAID?
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 20, 2005 2:07:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Good point Randy.
Perhaps the momentum thing was used in the context of non-high velocity movements such as Olympic lifting, medicine ball training, or plyometrics?
As usual, the training should fit the task, and if we are training high velocity or sports type movements, then that needs to be part of the training as well.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 20, 2005 7:26:00 AM
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certMDT
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Maybe this is too obvious for anyone to have said already: most of the form issues being discussed are a result of using too much weight. Nearly everyone would be far safer if they simply used weights that they could handle, versus ego or competition driving them to bend over on squats, bounce the bar of the chest, etc.
Charlie
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 20, 2005 8:28:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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Randy - agree, olympic lifts and other purposefully "ballistic" movements are a different kettle of fish, and indicated in the apropriate populations.
Charles - yes, may training "mistakes" stem from people using too much weight.
Jason - thanks for the detailed ananlysis re: lat pulldown. Are you referring the the anterior shoulder capsule when you speak of laxity?
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 20, 2005 7:05:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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I was kind of hoping for more philosophical/conceptual thought rather than specific movements. The one thing that stands out is that there are almost no rules that are absolute. Every rule has a purpose and exceptions and if you don't understand the why's then knowing the rule can be a hindrance rather than a help.
So what is everyones favrorite exercise/set/philosophy?
I began many years ago with the idea of just building muscle and making them stronger, then I realized that other aspects needed to be added so I added cardio/speed/balance etc. trained separately (sometimes still do), I worked on figuring out how to integrate them depending on the sporting activity. This led to my functional phase, which I still like, but I have moved on to trying to figure out neurological issues better. It seems the difference between great athletes and average athletes isn't so much their strength or speed but their kinesthetic awareness and their psychology, or psychoneurology. I'm trying to get my head around these things and how to train them. It's not as straightforward as developing absolute strength or better vo2max.
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 21, 2005 12:36:00 PM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Randy, as usual, good post.
But your question is so general, I'm not sure what you mean.
Core-
Yes, anterior shoulder capsule, but also other morphological properties of the individual person such as degree of Thoracic kyphosis, etc would also play in here.
This is a good illustration of Randy's point, that every rule has it's exceptions.
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Most common training mistakes - April 21, 2005 10:34:00 PM
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Randy Dixon
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Jason,
I find your answer/question very amusing, not because there is anything intrinsically funny about it but because it is a great example about a discussion we had on another thread about thinking styles. I'm interested in concepts and ideas and you like to nail down specifics. Global and analytical thinkers. It sometimes makes communication and understanding difficult.
I'm not sure how to rephrase my question. But for example you have mentioned how you use movement patterns much more in clinical reasoning than you used to because of things you have learned and observed. How about in exercise, what did you use to do that you now think is wrong or not as effective and why?
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