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Re: Proper squat form
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Re: Proper squat form - May 13, 2005 3:26:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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From: Barrie, Canada
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A little case illustration: 53 y/o caucasian, grew up in far east, squatted with aboriginals and now still squats fully, feet flat armpits on knees and sustains for up to an hour without symptoms - after that some stiffness when rising. In the far east, squatted with 78 year old to prepare foods for 30-40 minutes.
It is NOT done in a totally passive state though: a little sideways motion of the feet to reach something, a little forward bending etcetc. Mel was a great guy to focus on the science and evidence of exercise.
I don't know if a full squat puts so much pressure on the patella....(if I'm not aware of research, let me know) - the intercondylar groove is deeper and wider in full flexion than at any other angle - thus lessening the compressive forces compared to say, at 45-90 degrees. There are serious stresses on the meniscii in the full squat, as any of you with meniscus pathology can attest to.
Just my little case description.
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Re: Proper squat form - May 16, 2005 8:03:00 AM
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coreconcepts
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I love this debate! It's been contested for years in the bodybuilding community. I think it depends largely on the ROM of the individual. I have clients who are outstanding squatters and can go beyond the parallel without comprimising form (knees not too far forward, spine neutral, no varum or valgum, no excessive trunk forward flexion, etc.) Conversely, some of my clients with excessive tightness in the lumbar spine, hip, hams, calves - cannot perfor even to 90. I think it comes down to this: What is their goal, sport, and how is their flexibility? Deeper squats will give the client/patient more bang for their workout buck. Also, could there be an argument for deep squatting to counteract constantly working the knee extensors in a 1/4 to 1/2 squat range?
An interesting study by Salem and Powers (2001) looked at patellofemoral joint kinetics in female collegiate athletes at three different depths: 70 degrees (above parallel), 90 degrees (at parallel), and 110 degrees (below parallel) of knee flexion. The researchers found that "Peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three squatting trials". There was no support for the idea that squatting below parallel increases stress on the patellofemoral joint.
When looking at the similarly-debated topic of "knee-beyond-parallel" issue, Fry, Smith, and Schilling (2003) examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions. In the first condition, a board placed in front of the participants' shins restricted the forward displacement of the knees. In the second condition, movement wasn't restricted at all; they squatted normally, and the knees passed the toes.
The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased "internal angle at the knees and ankles." The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque.
The conclusion here would be yes, there is an increased PF pressure with a knees-beyond-the-toes squat, but restricting the motion may be to the detriment of other structures.
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Re: Proper squat form - May 16, 2005 9:10:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Well said.
For those who haven't seen them, those studies CoreC cited are worth reading full text.
J
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"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Proper squat form - May 16, 2005 2:58:00 PM
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anoopbal
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Ther is no added benifit of doing a deep squat over parallel squats for muscular gains in your quads. Going past below only activates the glutes maximus to a greater extent. There is no increase in activation for quads and biceps femoris.
Imagine what would happen if the quads were activated more in a deep squat position!
Talkning about injury, there is also a case of the weight being used in both these styles.In deep squats the weights are cut down to half of that being used in a parrallel squats. Hence,considering the greater weight used ( almost double),parallel squat might be much more dangerous than thought.
Anoop
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Re: Proper squat form - May 17, 2005 2:30:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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The weight is not always cut in half when squatting below parallel.
For example, competetive weightlifters frequently full squat to "catch" the weight.
More PF contact area may make deeper squats less painful...
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Proper squat form - May 18, 2005 5:45:00 AM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]The weight is not always cut in half when squatting below parallel.
For example, competetive weightlifters frequently full squat to "catch" the weight.
[/QUOTE]Dint quite understand what you meant. Cut in half was bit of an exxagertaion since most assume they are parrallel but never come close; a quarter squat than parrallel.
But the weights are drastically cut down in a deep squat compared to a parrallel squat.
Anoop
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Re: Proper squat form - May 18, 2005 6:02:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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That may be the way you teach a deep squat, but that is not going on in the rest of the world.
Check out any weightlifting (the sport) website for pics and videos of athletes in full squat positions with max loads, especially in the snatch.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Proper squat form - May 18, 2005 6:24:00 AM
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anoopbal
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[QUOTE]Check out any weightlifting (the sport) website for pics and videos of athletes in full squat positions with max loads, especially in the snatch. [/QUOTE]My arguement is simple. Can someone who parallel squats 600 pounds for 5 can deep squat the same weight for 5? Perhaps we are not on the same page.
Anoop
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Re: Proper squat form - May 18, 2005 11:19:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Sure, your statement makes sense.
Here's another one:
Can someone who mini-squats 600 for 5 parallel squat the same amount?
Of course not, it's a larger ROM.
Can someone who partially bench presses 600 for 5 maximally do a full bench press for the same?
Of course not, same reason.
The point I was making is that in the sport of weightlifting, large loads are used in the full squat position, especially when catching in the snatch.
I had thought you were saying any activity involving full squats automatically restricts loads. I was just pointing out that that is not true.
I think we agree that squatting below parallel probably is not helpful for athletes or the general population who is weight training.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Proper squat form - May 18, 2005 11:38:00 AM
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anoopbal
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I agree. I have even heard that olympic weight lifters have better knees than normal individuals.
Anoop
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Re: Proper squat form - May 24, 2005 4:21:00 PM
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gomez2
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What other exercise/ activity do we intentionally limit the body from doing what it was designed to do?
I have seen quite a few patients who have had some type of minor knee injury ( meniscus tear) that then resulted in limited knee ext exer. or no squat type training. This resulted in an overall weakness in the hips as well as the knees. This sets them up for a greater risk of injury since their body can't respond to the demand of a squating or partial squating activity/ demand. The majority of the time I have been able to spot the ones that will come back with further injury, many times of the other knee, since they lose strength but are compensating for the injured leg.
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Re: Proper squat form - May 25, 2005 5:33:00 AM
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Shill
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From: Madison WI USA
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Gomez2,
Ive got one for you. Abduction beyond 90 degrees with internal rotation. You CAN do it, but should you? We know this will approximate the greater tuberosity of the humerus on the acromion. Yet we are able to do it. Hmmmmmmm....
Some people shouldnt squat to full range. Our job is to be able to figure out who should or shouldnt before it creates a problem. Some normal knees will pinch the lateral posterior meniscus, and some wont. Who NEEDS to squat to full range under massive external load is another question.
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Re: Proper squat form - May 25, 2005 8:18:00 PM
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gomez2
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shill,
I agree, that not everyone is able. I also agree that full squats under massive loads isn't safe. I progress clients first with nonweight bearing exercises then partial WB focusing on AROM, sequencing and endurance and then FWB with a slow progression with the client's tolerance and form as a guide.
By the way, ABD w/ IR beyond 90 deg? not very functional and if one could do it they should be in Cirque de Sole'
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