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CSCS - December 19, 2004 8:24:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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Would like to hear people's opinion on the CSCS credentials. Worth the cost? Help w/ practice? Do potential employers take note? Would also like to hear anything else you would like to throw in.
Thanks, Dan, PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 20, 2004 4:51:00 AM
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FLAOrthoPT
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Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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depends on who your patients are. I did it, not really worthit. If you treat a lot of high schoool football players, then it isn't too bad. Or if you have no experience with general lifting principles and you want to be more versed with your patients who hurt themselves lifting or have questions about lifting then it is alright. I personally think it is more for personal trainers. If you are looking for exercise ideas, i'd go on the lines of something more functional like carlos santana course..
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Re: CSCS - December 20, 2004 4:36:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1242
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From: Indianapolis
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I got it years ago, I personally think it is worthless, I list it here to just be with the "in" crowd, but I would never use it in the professional world. It is a simple test you take that really means zilch.
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: CSCS - December 20, 2004 5:36:00 PM
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Brian Schiff, PT, CSCS
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Joined: September 11, 2004
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I am interested by Dr. Wagner's reply. My experience has been that the credential, NSCA journals, conferences, etc. have added to my knowledge about strength and conditioning principles and better allowed me to care for and functionally progress athletes in the sports medicine clinic.
While it may not add a lot to your resume in terms of working in therapy clinics, it is definintley helpful in working with athletic populations and useful in performance enhancement situations. Ironically, the CSCS credential is one of the most respected in the fitness industry. Reading the replies on this forum thus far might cause one to think it is worthless.
I would definitely disagree with that opinion and say it truly depends on your own work environment, knowledge base and future career path and goals. As I now work with professional athletes, I have found it very useful.
I do have a question for Dr. Wagner. If you got the certification years ago and you feel it means zilch, why have you kept up on the CEUs required by the NSCA to keep the credential? Why not let your certification lapse?
My advice to you, Dan: Think about your own skill set and what your career goals are. If you want to work with any athletes and are not knowledgeable about periodization, lifting form, olympic lifting, plyometrics, etc. and want an additional resource on sport specific training, then you might want to look into it further.
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Re: CSCS - December 20, 2004 7:33:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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This is always something you see in articles where an athlete is mentioned and something about exercise, whoever the "professional" always seems to be someone with their CSCS. Now I definitely think the PT degree is enough - that came up in debate in another post that I made. I am just looking to add to my skills or toolbox so to speak. I do work with a lot of high school athletes and they all participate in a variety of sports. If nothing else, by buying the material would help me review some techniques and academic material. Anyone else have an opinion?
Dan, PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 2:53:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Dan,
Try studying hard and being passionate about your work (it sounds like you are). You may not get much extra acknowledgment for it but it doesn't cost you anything either, except your time. Some titles are legal requirements to do what you want and some are only as important as the marketers can make them. I'm not sure if the CSCS is a legal requirement for anything.
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 3:22:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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I have personally planned on getting the degree for years. I don't think that the actual PT degree has ever prepared someone for more intensive and aggressive rehabilitation techniques. Some of us who read more and even lift a lot may not need these extra "lessons", but so many do. Can't think of how many times I have seen a PT putting a big burly patient through two weeks of yellow theraband rotator cuff PRE's and expect the program to get him ready for his coal mining job. Or, someone doing SAQ with one pound, again expecting to strengthen the poor guys quads enough to help him get his 300 frame up out of the chair!
There are PT's that have never exercised, played competitive sports, or even been in a gym, and often their programs show it. For the benefit of the patients, a CSCS is nothing but a bonus.
If it were not for the censoring capabilities of this forums software, I would tell you what a local MD administrator told me the CSCS really stands for :0
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 4:38:00 AM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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Jon...the CSCS isn't a legal requirement for anything as it is not licensure, just a certification.
PTupdate - do agree w/ you - I have seen the same thing happen in the clinic. I am very active w/ sports & lifting and I do agree that other PT's who are active in sports and lift have an edge over those that do not. I feel my program prepared me well in this area.
Dan, PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 7:53:00 AM
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cpage
Posts: 5
Joined: December 3, 2003
From: north huntingdon, pa 15642
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I got my CSCS 3 years ago and can honestly say that I really did not learn anything new. As an avid weight trainer in college and now, most of the study material was just a good review. However, I agree with others that for someone without background in weight and cardio training, it could be beneficial, especially when working with athletes.
The thing that really bothers me is people working at a gym called "personal trainers" who had to complete a weekend couse to earn those credentials. They have no anatomy/exercise phys background at all.
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Clint Page, MPT, CSCS
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 8:46:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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capge, you are quite right. Can't tell you how many times I have patients transfer some really screwed up wisdom taught by some "personal trainer", which they take as gospel.
Some people are so adamant about what this "trainer" told them, I basically have to throw out the numbers to them and say "...this clinic sees over 15,000 visits per year, and I have been doing this for 13 years, and have never seen this exercise cause an injury to someone" and blah blah blah. Once, I had to say "fine, then let your "personal trainer" with his weekend education treat you"
While you did not learn anything new, at least your peers will understand that you have a clue about certain aspects of patient care. The "PT" after your name does not always guarantee that, but the CSCS, or SCS, ATC, OCS kind of imply you are a little more motivated and educated.
I see you are a Western PA neighbor!! A little nicer out today than yesterday, isn't it?
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 3:06:00 PM
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cneup
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Joined: August 6, 2003
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It's all about application -- knowledge is worthless if it is not applied appropriately. If obtaining a CSCS will help you apply your current knowledge go for it -- there are other ways to learn as well - got to decide where you'll get the most bang for your buck.
I personally have learned a lot in terms of functional training from Gary Gray and Vern Gambetta --
A good and cheap way to get better at strength and conditioning is to read: "Science and Practice of Strength Training" by Vladimir Zatsiorsky; "Supertraining" by Siff and Veroshansky ; and "Periodization of Strength" by Tudor Bompa -- then decide if you want more credentials or not.
John - just wanted to point out that not all trainers injure people -- yes there are plenty out there that don't have a clue; however there are a few who know what they are doing, and can do it better than most PTs -- for example: my husband is an amazing trainer who has been able to rehab many patients who did not respond to PT (they were treated by PTs with OCS, ATC, and CSCS credentials which goes back to my earlier point of application). He is constantly getting referrals from the orthopedic surgeons with "problem patients" when they fail at PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 21, 2004 7:21:00 PM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
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From: Orlando, FL
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How can a trainer rehab someone. Rehab is our domain. This is one reason we have the problem we have in our profession - we just let other so called professionals just take what we are educated and trained to do.
cneup - please don't take this personal because I do not mean it that way. I am just trying to point out that trainers and other people should not be doing rehab - that is our domain.
I think one of our big problems as a profession is the lack of education and awareness that the public has about who we are and what we do. I think that is why we run into those patients like PTupdate.com had. Not to mention the flighty pill-popping quick-fix mentality our society has.
Dan, PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 22, 2004 3:24:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1242
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From: Indianapolis
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I found the CSCS to be nothing new, and in fact I think it is only a way for the NSCA to make money on a professionals fears that a lone degree does not make them qualified to participate in a particular area. Listen, I learned everything I needed to pass the CSCS exam from 1. PT school and 2. working out in a gym.
Did I keep up the CEU's, hell no. I went to medical school the next year...I got the CSCS when I was "searching" for the right path for myself.
While I think the CSCS may not be worthless to the layperson, to a PT...it should not be used as a marketing tool. It does not require a professional license, it does not require a mentorship, it does not require classes (self study is ok). It is just a merit badge...
It would be like using ACLS, PALS,ATLS after my name for passing advanced cardiac life support, pediatric advanced life support, and advanced trauma life support.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: CSCS - December 22, 2004 3:40:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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I have several military PT friends that have these credentials. They all passed the test without opening a book. I am not sure what the point was other than the military helped pay the cost for the test and since it was free they took the test. If it was a difficult test that required much preparation, hands on practice, and dedicated independent study I could see where it may make you a better PT because it would force you to learn new knowledge, but to take a test where most of us do not have to even study for, what is the point?
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Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: CSCS - December 22, 2004 3:56:00 AM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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cneup: You are right, there are some exceptional trainers out there....some of the best sculpted bodies around were "molded" by GOOD personal trainers...I was more delineating those college sophmore's found in most generic health clubs over the the summer break.
ptdan: Unfortunately, the "trainer" profession will be picking up some of our slack. With ACL reconstructions requiring up to 6 months of some type of rehab/exercise, somebody needs to help guide them when their insurance quits paying us after 1 month. Few PT facilities can offer gym memberships and keep these folks under their watchful eye and continue to progress....and then we run into that "providing care without a prescription" argument, etc.
Army: I have not looked into the CSCS for a few years, and usually referenced old journals kept in our buildings library....most from pre-1990, from the organization that provides the CSCS. I found these to be quite hard core and surprisingly informative...perhaps things have changed.
However, just because one can easily pass a test does not always mean the screening criteria was not appropriate. Your friends may have just been quite knowledgable with that material. I spent only the afternoon before my OCS exam scanning through my ortho textbook from PT school, and passed the exam. Anybody who has taken it will tell you it's rough, I just happened to know the material. Those who are good at ortho/sports rehab/exercise may already have those skills in their heads and can sit and take that exam. Passing just gives them credentials to say that they are proficient at something.
I hope the CSCS has not been watered down, as they tried to do with the OCS a few years ago.
John Duffy, PT OCS
[URL=http://www.PTupdate.com]www.PTupdate.com[/URL]
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: CSCS - December 22, 2004 4:51:00 AM
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cneup
Posts: 26
Joined: August 6, 2003
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Dan: I agree with John -- it is a continuum of care. Personal trainers can be an essential ally to provide continued care for those who have "finished" PT. Please understand - he does not "rehab" acute injuries -- maybe "post-rehab" would be a better description. My point is simply that a knowledgeable trainer can take patients to a level that many PTs are unable to because they have the time and ability to apply strength/conditioning variables. We do not learn how to periodize programs to maximize strength/function in PT school - that is something we must continue to pursue if we want to maximize functional strength gains. Well qualified personal trainers have an edge in that realm because that is all they do!
Turf wars are frustrating to me because every profession (training, chiropractic care, sugery etc) can all offer different aspects of care to maximize a person's ability to function and enjoy life. We should be educating and building relationships with these other professionals rather than holding onto "turf" so tightly. Referrals work both ways!
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Re: CSCS - December 22, 2004 6:56:00 AM
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Brian Schiff, PT, CSCS
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Joined: September 11, 2004
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I agree with cneup that too many medical and allied health professionals (MD's, PT's, ATC's, trainers, etc) are adversarial and not willing to work together. The reality in today's world is that insurance is paying for fewer visits and limiting the scope of practice. There is a greater need now for more qualified fitness professionals to help out with post-rehab clients.
The key to making this transition successful is cooperation on both sides. As PT's, we ahould be knowledgeable about different certifications and what requirements are there for them. And remember, just because we went to PT school does not mean we have more knowledge about exercise or the application of it. I see this attitude among many PT's that trainers are inferior and have poeple do horrible exercises all the time. While this can be the case (and is one reason I moved to the fitness industry) I have met several intelligent trainers who do a great job.
Now as far as the CSCS being a merit badge of sorts, the reality is that in fitness, one should ascribe to taking one of the best certifications available. The CSCS exam at least weeds out those without a 4 year degree and requires a sound base of knowledge. While it may be easy for PT's, this should not allow us to discount the NSCA or the credential as crap. It may not mean as much to the PT profession, but the attitude of ridiculing another organization based on some other higher level of learning or degree in one's mind is disappointing and narrow minded.
And for clarification to those interested, a new organization termed the NBFE, will soon be offering a national board certifiction exam for fitness trainers. This was started by Dr. Sal Arria and its board of directors has some impressive professionals on it. They will act in much the same light as the AMA does for physicians. Wellness is very important, and many organizations like the NSCA are trying to raise the standards of care through research and certification with specific standards.
For those who simply detest the CSCS certification, or have chosen to let their certification lapse, I would personally like to see them discontinue using those initials as part of their title. Nothing is gained from negativity. And just as there are bad trainers, there are bad therapists and doctors. I do not feel we should judge a person based on their initials - I make evaluations based on their actual work, reasoning and results.
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Re: CSCS - December 23, 2004 5:35:00 AM
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ptdan23
Posts: 224
Joined: November 6, 2003
From: Orlando, FL
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I agree with most of what everyone is saying. I am more than willing to work w/ other professionals (AT, MD, etc - maybe except chiros). Cooperation between professionals only helps who we are trying to help. I find more resistance from others (especially MD's) who are against being allies instead of a one way street like MD's seem to prefer.
I think this attitude of letting trainers take our patients even if they are done because of insurance limitations is crap. As PT's we should be trying to keep them for as long as is necessary to appropriately help that patient. If that means contacting the insurance company, referral source, etc then it should be done. I would much rather be able to refer to an AT after I am done with my patient and it is the appropriate time (for example with an ACL patient) than have them go to a gym and work with a trainer whose credentials are not necessarily backed by anything. An AT has at least their BS and I know what they can do and how they can help my patient if I refer them to the AT.
I think one of the unfortunate things is the lack of ability (restrictions put on by state, etc) for PT's to be able to refer to another professional. Sure we can say go see so and so but there is no documentation of that - not really official. Does anyone have a form that they use (like an MD uses to refer pts to therapy) that they use to refer pts to other professionals (AT, back to MD, counseling, etc)? If so I would love to see it.
I would love to see PT's get more involved w/ their profession. I am trying my best to do so, would love to attend more state, federal, and APTA meetings (I am an APTA member). Unfortunately my employer is not very supportive of this which makes it difficult.
Just my 2 cents worth - well maybe a little more. Enough ranting for today :)
Happy Holidays, Dan, PT.
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Re: CSCS - December 27, 2004 2:49:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1242
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
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I think the primary concern for the CSCS that Army and myself have is that what merit does a designation hold if there is nothing more than a test for certification. There is no mentoring period, there is no true academic requirement, virtually anyone can take it if they wish. The concern is "does this creat a false sense of security for the public" ... what makes a CSCS more qualified than an exercise physiologist at strength and conditioning...furthermore, has the NSCA created an unfair title that virtually necessitates paying the money and passing the test to get some letters that offer no true licensure benefits.
(PS. I would never EVER use the title CSCS in my professional title...only here...I only use DO)
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: CSCS - December 27, 2004 6:52:00 PM
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steve
Posts: 470
Joined: May 14, 2003
From: Canada
Status: offline
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Dr. Wagner,
I'm a little hurt as a physio, you dont keep PT in your title?
Steve
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