DPT - for and against (Full Version)

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Ed -> DPT - for and against (January 11, 2003 11:39:00 AM)

I’m PT working in private practice. I’ve thought of “upgrading” myself by acquiring the DPT degree. As this issue is very controversial I’d like to hear what do you think about it. In other words: I’d like to hear an opinions for and against on this issue .



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (May 1, 2003 6:40:00 PM)

After long thought, I've decided to get my DPT. Simply put, I'd like to take the imaging course and get some diff. diagnostics and medical screening continuing education. I've never seen much point to Con. ed. without working toward some sort of certification or degree.

Andrew M. Ball, PT, PhD, MBA, CITFS



PT -> Re: DPT - for and against (August 5, 2003 8:26:00 PM)

I do not support the entry-level DPT but I do think obtaining an advanced DPT after you have practiced for awhile is a good idea. At this time in your career you probably have some questions that need to be answered and can approach your studies from a more reslistic point of view.



tlhpedspt -> Re: DPT - for and against (February 22, 2004 5:35:00 AM)

If situations were different, I think I would have personal interest in earning a DPT. However, my own children will be needing to start college in the next 5 years (and I have five sons 4 through 15) so earning a DPT is not a financial possibility for me. Therefore, I am hoping that I will be able to continue to maintain and expand my skills and employment in spite of the many young people who will have DPT's.



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (March 4, 2004 3:57:00 PM)

My DPT is not expensive, about $3500.

Also, a DPT is NOT a PhD. It will not, and is not intended, to create a professional better able to conduct research.

Drew



Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS -> Re: DPT - for and against (March 5, 2004 3:16:00 AM)

I would like to obtain my DPT. The only downer than I can say against it is the price. I have not found a program for under $6000. Dr. Ball, which school is only $3500?

ArmyPT



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (March 15, 2004 4:39:00 PM)

Temple, Boston U, and MGH Institute of Health Professions at Harvard are all around $3500 with the maximum of courses waived by portfolio/life experience.

Drew



durst mary -> Re: DPT - for and against (May 7, 2004 11:37:00 AM)

ed:
in rsponse to your wondering if getting your doctorate in physicsaltherapy is a good move my question to you is this are youdoing this to enhance your practice and patient careor just to say you have it ? why i ask that is because i know a few of them and frankly thier education and appraoch to thier patientscare leave alot to be disired for example remember that just because you have the dpt behind your name you are not medical doctor with alicense to practice medicine nor are you qualified to callenge the judgement and diagnoses of a board certified Orthopedic sugeon say with over 20yrs experience in say Upper extremity problems. I comend you for wanting to continue your education but my question isfor what reasons are they to benifit the patient and improve thier quality of life or just to say that you have this degree?



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (May 8, 2004 2:27:00 AM)

Perhaps not, but a DPT non-medical clinical doctor with 20 years experience is certainly well positioned to challenge the "diagnosis" of other non-medical clinical doctors (such as chiropractors), or focused paraprofessionals such as massage therapists or athletic trainers, who by comparison, lack sufficient scope and depth of education to challenge that that even the BS level trained physical therapist does for the patient --- especially if said other non medical clinical doctor either has little experience, or graduated from a school like Sherman or Life, who graduates portal of entry clinicians with insufficient diagnostic skill.

Also, the vision for the future of physical therapy isn't that of recieving orders from physicians at all times. It is to be recognized, without question, as the non-medical clinical doctor of choice for the diagnosis and management of neuromusculoskeletal dysfunction. As this vision is realized, doctors of physical therapy will need to assess and diagnose patients within their limited scope of practice --- the conflict that you suppose, isn't valid because in such situations, the doctor of physical therapy would either be the entry-point for the patient into the system, or making (and being supported and respected) for making a referal to say, a cardiologist for a patient originally sent to us by an orthopedic physician.

Drew



Jon Newman -> Re: DPT - for and against (May 8, 2004 5:31:00 AM)

Ed, I think you'll find, as this thread evolves, that it is unlikely that anyone opposes the degree itself. What tends to be controversial is tacking on practice privlages to the degree. I admit not knowing the process behind granting special practice privlages but I imagine that it is a political one. If so, the vast majority of PT's do not have a DPT and would likely lobby against such a change (to grant special privlages to those with DPT). I have not seen any sanctioned/authorized effort to grant special practice rights to DPT's that would not extend to PT's at this point despite the conspriacy theories and rhetoric I've read in other threads on the same topic.
My personal opinion is that in order to create the largely desired (by PT's)change of direct access, it would be better to have a cohesive profession than one divided.

jon



JLS_PT_OCS -> Re: DPT - for and against (February 7, 2005 8:17:00 AM)

I have seen nothing that would indicate that there are to be any differences in access and/or clinical privileges between DPTs and other PTs.

It is my understanding from APTA documents and chat transcripts that it is simply the first step in a practice evolution, one that will be several generations to come, in terms of realizing our potential.
I think many of us have an unnecessary sense of urgency regarding this transition, as if any profession could or would progress that quickly.

I don't think there should be or would be any differences between a talented, experienced, and knowledgeable practitioner in the same profession, regardless of what letters they have, the "PT" being the most important.

I left some comments on the "should PTs be called Dr" thread that might be pertinent to this discussion:
"In my opinion, the DPT seems to be as much about political parity for the purpose of maintaining our professional scope of practice than about what's really needed to practice safely and effectively."

So, I really see it as a practice evolution, that only requires a different degree due to:
1. political reality of the healthcare system in the US
2. requirement for more education to be able to provide care as an portal-of-entry practitioner

I think fears of being discriminated against (from those who cannot or do not want to obtain the DPT) are unfounded.

It seems to me that anyone reading APTA's statements about the DPT understand it quite well, while the only ones fearful are those who have not taken the time to read and understand APTA's intent on the matter.
Many of them "happen to be" nonmembers, which in itself speaks volumes to their committment to their profession.

As Jon said (intelligently, as is usual for him), any supposed practice differences are really conspiracy theories...



gomez2 -> Re: DPT - for and against (May 29, 2005 5:56:00 PM)

as Bs. PT from 1991, I don't agree with the direction this has gone. In 1991 PT was a BS and then you specialized with MS and DPT. To me that would be a better system, each step would warrant more pay with each specialization. Also, those who reach DPT would deserve the differenciation. For those like me, I would rather spend the time and money getting a specialty with manual therapy or some other treatment/field specific direction



dosrinc -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 2, 2005 3:45:00 AM)

Gomez2, take a look at the Ola Grimsby Institute, you can spend your time and money getting your manual therapy certification while you work to obtain your DPT, a great program that has made a huge difference in my career and in my treatment approach. Unlike Dr. Ball's program, it will introduce you to research and prepare you to continue in this field if you so wish. In my opinion this is a much better way to go vs. taking some on-line courses and spending 5-6k to get your t-DPT. It may be more expensive but at the same time you are gaining clinical skills that will last you a lifetime and will be of great benefit to your patients. and no, they don't pay me a dime to say these things. Good Luck!
Rick



USAPT -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 2, 2005 7:10:00 AM)

I have my DPT but because of where my last semester ended and whenthe school was transitioning to DPT, they gave us the choice to stay on or graduate with an MPT degree. Most of us stayed on and I am glad I did for the additional education, especially the differential Dx class. I have put it to practical use 2x so far.
That is my reason for getting the DPT, no other. I'm not into the whole 'title' issue. The title doesn't make you a good clinician.

Well that's my 2 cents for the day



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 2, 2005 4:05:00 PM)

Rick,

Let's not misrepresent the MGH program. The t-DPT program DOES have both clinical and research coursework to be completed. What I said was that because I've a PhD and have published, that coursework was waived for me, but that's not the norm for most people.

I'd disagree that the OGI program is the way to go for a t-DPT. If someone is going to spend the time and expense to complete a manual therapy certification (which by the way, can be earned in 5 weekends from the Maitland folks, so let's not hold it out to be all that more intensive than it actually is), I'd suggest going the full nine and doing a DScPT. Why spend the time doing an OGI DPT if it's STILL transitional, and as such equal to entry-level in the eyes of the APTA and any faculty program? The OGI program, in my opinion, is just short of being a DScPT, but it's not termed that --- so why spend the time in manual courses for no better academic clout at the end?

Drew



dosrinc -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 3, 2005 2:46:00 AM)

Why Drew? Because it makes you a MUCH better clinician! That is the point, I don't care much about tDPT vs. DScPT, whatever, I do know that after completion of the DPT through the OGI I was able to improve my treatment outcomes, I also completed a dissertation that we are working to have published and I have established great contacts throughout the country. It also gave me the confidence to know that I could go into private practice and communicate with physicians regarding a pts. dysfunction and not make a fool of myself. If you haven't taken any OGI courses you should try a few, if you are only interested in adding more letters behind your name then stick to the internet courses. Good luck!
Rick



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 3, 2005 7:58:00 AM)

I disagree that it makes you a much better clinician, I'd agree that it makes you a much better TECHNICIAN, which is to say greater focus on technical skills than clinical decision making.

Finally, unless something has changed since I last looked, OGI is NOT ACCREDITED by a regional accrediting body. That means, right or wrong, internet based or not, that in the eyes of the US Department of Education, a DPT earned from MGH is an "earned doctorate," and that a DPT earned from OGI (while significant in the clinic, perhaps), is not considered a bona-fide earned doctorate for faculty advancement/promotion, or tenure.

That means that with a DPT from an accredited school, and a clinical specialization or additional advanced degree, you MIGHT be able to work out a clinical tenure track at some schools, but with a degree from OGI, you'd almost always be out of luck.

Finally, understand that's not a knock on the OGI education --- if that's what you're looking for. For me, it just wasn't. The only things I'd knock OGI for is not seeking and obtaining regional accreditation, and putting together a DPT program with more fluff than it needs to be --- but not quite enough to be a DScPT.

If orthopedic manual therapy is your thing, and you can kill two birds with one stone between the OGI DPT and a manual therapy certification for use in the clinic and a few adjunct courses --- great for you. You do, however, realize that there are PT's who would rather focus in areas of practice other than outpatient orthopedics and that the OGI DPT might NOT be the best option right?

Drew



dosrinc -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 3, 2005 8:43:00 AM)

Drew, my original post was in response to a post by Gomez2 who was looking for a way to improve his clinical skills, he mentioned manual therapy certification, I offered him some information on a program through which he could obtain manual therapy certification and a DPT.

The OGI is accredited by the combined task force of the AAOMPT and the APTA which recognizes Clinical Residency sites in the field of Manual Physical Therapy.

I am not concerned with your opinion on whether or not the OGI makes you a better clinician, I am concerned with the fact that it made ME a better clinician. The core of the program is designed to stimulate critical thinking and therefore better clincal decision making. Take a few courses before you comment on something you know nothing about.

Finally, there are several OGI graduates, not just DPT's but MOMT's as well, teaching at major universities throughout the country and in institutions overseas. They may or may not be eligible for tenure, don't know and don't care. Again my original post was in response to gomez2.

I am glad you are happy with the choices you made, I know I am.

Rick



Andrew M. Ball PT PhD -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 3, 2005 11:54:00 AM)

Okay, I think the "Why Drew?" statement threw me in misunderstanding that you were not talking to me specifically.

AAOMPT and APTA don't accredit transitional DPT nor post-professional programs, so I think you may have misinterpreted something. OGI does have an APTA and AAOMPT accredited clinical residency program --- but that's different, and different still from regional accreditation.

All of that is to say that why would you suggest someone wanting DPT and manual therapy certification go for a DPT at OGI instead of, say, St. Augustine? USA offers both DPT & manual therapy certification --- but also is DETC (Distance Education Training Council) and SACS (Southern Association of Colleges and Schools) accredited --- both of which are regional accrediting bodies recognized by the US Dept. of Education.

Give your goal, why OGI over USA?????

Drew



dosrinc -> Re: DPT - for and against (June 3, 2005 2:05:00 PM)

Drew the APTA and AAOMPT accredited clinical residency program offered by the OGI is the program that ends with the DPT and manual therapy certification, at least it was when I took it. Things have changed a bit over the last few years.

Why OGI over USA, hard to say because I have taken only the lumbar stab course offered by Dr. Paris. I work with two USA grads and have found them to be very knowledgable and skilled, one is DPT the other is working on his, both are MTC. They also both have a very strong regard for the profession and for continued learning which I think both Ola and Dr. Paris do a great job of promoting. They have both commented, however, that they missed out on the heavy concentration on exercise that Ola provides while I think that they have a better understanding of radiology and pharm than I do.
My advice to anyone deciding between the two would be to take some con ed courses with each and decide which style you feel more comfortable with before going for the post grad degree.

Rick



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