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Re: SB 146 Arkansas
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 3, 2007 11:49:00 AM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
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From: Nebraska
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Tom,
Try this link: http://www.defendphysicaltherapy.com
teston accidentally put a "." at the end of the link in her post.
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Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 3, 2007 11:56:00 AM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
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From: Nebraska
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Reading the "judgment" against Micheal in his "case" was just as bad as the new practice act above. Being judged by another profession, especially one that received their education outside of a University system, is unfathomable. Then, to fine him the maximum of $5k for each violation?? What constituted that? No harm was done, and there was no shown intent to harm. It appears totally vindictive. "We fine you the max because we can and you're not one of us". Sad, sad case.
I know one state I'll make sure to never get close to.
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Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 3, 2007 11:58:00 AM
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TC PT
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Thanks Jason.
I had been aware of this case in general terms and thought this had happened a few years ago. Looks like I was correct.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 3, 2007 12:17:00 PM
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teston
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"We fine you the max because we can and you're not one of us".
The Chiropractic board fined a chiropractor, Dr. Hill, that had been practicing chiropractic in Arkansas for 15 years without a license only $500. They did that a month before Michael's fine of $10,000.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 4, 2007 5:21:00 PM
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jbird007
Posts: 297
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quote:Wow. So basically Chiros can "without limitation" practice Physical therapy? What a crock.
I do not understand. PT's want to do manipulation yet PT's do not want DC's to do PT?
This always puzzles me. Some of the PT's here state that manipulation can be learned in a weekend seminar and still be effective, safe and they can determine when NOT to adjust(by ddx) yet they dislike a DC doing PT after the DC has taken PT courses as part of the DC curriculum and passed a board exam. Hmm.
JBird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 4, 2007 5:26:00 PM
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mcap56
Posts: 619
Joined: October 26, 2002
From: New York, NY
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JBird:
You missed the point. I don't have the specifics of the case at hand.....but....as I understand it a PT performed a mobilization. A chiropractic board determined it was a manipulation and leveled fines against the PT.
Allow us to make this clear.....No Chiropactic board should EVER be allowed to levy fines against ANY PT, ANYWHERE. If there was malpractice, take it to court and sue like any other malpractice claim. Imagine, if in your state, you did something that the state reps for PT were not happy with and then fined you. It's a joke.
Marc
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 4, 2007 10:24:00 PM
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jbird007
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From: USA
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Mcap. My response was to Ian. Far too often I see PT's unhappy with the political forum because of DC's doing PT but many PT's perform manipulation. I am not sure why the double standard is taken up by many PT's.
As far as DC's being credited with the "physician" label, its a reality and is recognized by many states, by W/C and by Federal government. I do not personally like OR use the label and you know what my thoughts are on the "doctor" status stuff (I believe MD's are the only REAL doctors).
Again this all boils down to politics which I frown upon. If your PT associations and boards lobby to penalize DC's for doing PT work, I would undergo the political penalties. If I did not like the laws, I would support a group to abolish it or find other solutions to the problem. I do not like wearing a helmet when I ride a motorcycle so I moved to where the laws gave a individual a choice. Sometimes when you can't change something you either ignore it and move on or change yourself.
I still go back to my standby saying:
Years ago us chiros were labeled nutbags and witchdoctors for "popping backs". We supposedly paralyzed our patients and any type of manipualtion we did was ruthless and non-productive. NOW, almost all heathcare professions want a piece of manipulation, everyone is doing it and embracing it...To top that off, everyyone ( but the DC's) are telling everyone else (and us) how it should be performed.
Funny how times and peoples attitudes change but that kinda ticks me off. Roll with the changes. That is life.
JBird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 2:06:00 AM
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jbird007
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How would PT's and the PT association/s feel if massage therapists attended a weekend seminar to learn PT work and then she/he began doing it on a regular basis?
J
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 2:11:00 AM
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jbird007
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btw, Buddy T made a good post on the topic. I noticed no one commented on it. You PT folks look a bit hypocritical on this issue.
JBird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 3:09:00 AM
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jlharris
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From: Nebraska
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Give me some time. I have family, work and the Superbowl over the weekend. Not always able to haunt the forums at all times :p
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My PT Blog
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 3:53:00 AM
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mcap56
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I will respond to both you and Buddy T:
I will start by pointing out that posting "I could call you...........but I won't because I have too much respect for you" is a childish backhanded insult.
I applaud all disciplines protecting their turf. However, when a board in one discipline has the power to levy fines against someone from another discipline, with very little understanding of the other discipline, it's a different story altogether and uacceptable.
It is also quite easy to sit on the sidelines and post to a bulletin board about how you abhor politics and are a pacifist. Your state and national associations do the heavy lifting for you. Such lifting, here in NY, includes a bill that would preclue PTs from manipulating with wording that was so vague, than any mobilization would be in jeapordy as well. There were also all out assaults against direct access.
I know some excellent chiropractors. I am meeting with one tonight actually about some instruction where I teach. But, honestly, you are on a physical therapy bulletin board. Do you not expect PTs to be zealous in their own defense?
As for status and the comparison of chiro to PT, I think there are many issues within chiropractic that are more deserving of your energies (manipulation schism, student loan default rates, standards for entering school, etc).
Marc
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 5:15:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
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How about the PT Associations start handing out 10k fines to all the DCs who claim to be doing physiotherapy?
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 5:28:00 AM
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jbird007
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Simply put, because it is not illegal. Some DC's were schooled in PT,took a board exam and it is legal to do "PT type" procedures in some ( if not all)states.
IF your PT association fought to change the laws then they could possibly have a hand in the enforcement as well. Look at how PT's have already challenged DC's for the manipulation market. And they have an agenda to take control of manipulation, which IMO might indeed happen.
This is a touchy discussion to take on yet I do want to express my respect for the PT.
JBird
Jbird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 5:35:00 AM
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proud
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When it comes to NMSK, essentially those practicing EBM are providing similair care. In the end, those who produce the research that demonstrates proficiency in this area will be the provider of choice. And no one outside of the NMSK arena really cares that much.
However with the aging population and ever increasing healthcare costs, containment through strict adherence to EBM will be required. It may not be ideal but it is a reality.
So I say worry more about what "you" as an individual practitioner is doing rather than what others are doing. I am pretty happy with the direction PT is taking in this regard.
And Buddy, you always have very intelligent points and I respect all your posts for the most part. However, I am suprised that you still think manipulation is such a mystery. And I notice many under the radar comments about learning on a "weekend course" implying that manipulation requires extensive training. I gather from your posts that you have a very stong footing when it comes to EBM. With the research demonstrating the contrary to your opinion, I have to question your reasoning. This is not meant to be inflamatory Buddy, I hope you see that.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 5:44:00 AM
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jbird007
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Manipulation and when not to manipulate is a skill and can not be learned in a weekend seminar. You may learn how to "pop a bone" in a 2 hour "show and tell" session but good luck with that. DC's often say we spend the first 5 years of practice honing manipulation skills.
Just be prepared for more and more Americans to be without healthcare insurance.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 5:51:00 AM
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proud
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Jbird007,
I edited my post to reflect your comment.I disagree with you but we both know that so I will not engage in a back and forth. Much respect jbird, you are entitled to your opinion.
The research to date appears to be siding with my view. But ultimately time will tell.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 6:00:00 AM
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MPT
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From: Syracuse, New York
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jbird
I do not have a problem with a chiro doing exercise, modalities and other rehab related procedures. Just like I don't expect a chiro to come after me for providing a manipulation. However, I would never call what I do chiropractic treatment. A manipulation is not chiropractic treatment, it is a technique. A licensed chiropractor is rightfully the only person who can perform chiropractic care. And guess what, a physical therapist is the only person who can perform "physical therapy".
An exercise or ultrasound is not physical therapy, they are exercise and ultrasound.
It is simply misleading to tell the public that you provide chiropractic care if you are not a chiro or physical therapy if you are not a physical therapist. Each profession has the right to "own" those terms.
So do what you want in your clinic and I will do what I want in mine but don't call yourself something you are not.
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 6:31:00 AM
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jbird007
Posts: 297
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From: USA
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AR15,I disagree. Again by law, in many states the term adjustment and manipulation IS chiropractic treatment.
In the earlier days the way PT's got around this issue was to use the wording Grade 1,2,3,4, and 5 mobilization. It allowed them to manipulate/adjust. Viola! It was basically the same thing but under a different name. A slick trick and it worked. One can perform a chiropractic adjustment/technique and call it something else and slip through the cracks. But joe patient doesnt care what you call it (PT, adjustment, chiro, manip, osteopath, bone-crunching, pop-my-back) he/she just wantes to get better. I never tell anyone I am doing PT. I do manip, heat,ice and soft tissue work and most often go over exercise protocol. I do not rehab post surgical stuff or serious post injury
(stroke etc) and do not want to. IMO that is PT expertise and where you folks do your best work.
I will re-state again that I find it odd how us evil chiros were attacked for what we did but now everyone wants to do what we do, AND now they want to dictate how it should be done PROPERLY and with PROPER research to back it. DC's know it works and its worked for many many years and thats all most of us care about. IMO, I do not need to prove anything to anybody except to help people get better. Other Dc's may disagree with me on these points. I do what I do until it stops working.
JBird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 6:39:00 AM
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jbird007
Posts: 297
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From: USA
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proud quoted:In the end, those who produce the research that demonstrates proficiency in this area will be the provider of choice.
If you think those who provide the research will automatically be the "chosen ones" you are incorrect. People will go where they get the best results and this mostly stems by word of mouth. For over 100 years DC's have proved they are cost effective and get positive results. IMO no research is needed as the proof lies in the success. Unless this country goes further into a Dictatorship(DC care becomes illegal) a person still has choices where to go or to by-pass the bureaucratic hoops and pay cash.
JBird
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Re: SB 146 Arkansas - February 5, 2007 6:57:00 AM
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drbuddy
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From: Pennsylvania
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Proud, I think you have me mistaken with another posture. I'm not sure what I said to make it sound like manipulation was a mystery. I also never said anything about weekend courses.
Here's how I feel about manipulation though. On healthy patients or patients in relatively little to no pain, anyone can perform manipulation through learning it in a few hands on courses. I do think it takes more skill to use manipulation on certain groups of patients, like the ones that are difficult to manipulate, are in pain, have other issues, etc.
What study are you quoting when you say skill doesnt matter? Was it a PT study? How many subjects? Were chiros inlcuded? Although the results were interesting, I dont think you can say without a doubt that experience or technical skills doesn't matter when it comes to manipulation.
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