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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:22:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
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Jeep
so where is the evidence that CMCC courses are transferable to any universities in Canada?
BTDC
I could not find any links to published RCT(level 1B evidence)studies proving any Chiropractic treatments on the CMCC link you posted...
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:34:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Proud posts:
[QUOTE] (2)he has 7 years of university? Well here are the answers:
(2) No he does not. Transferable perhaps( at the discretion of the university), but certainly not university level or automatically equivalent. [/QUOTE]The Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities states otherwise. See links on previous posts.
Who should I believe? Proud-------or the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities? HMMMMMMMM
---------------------------------
Diane then becomes completely unglued and posts:
[QUOTE]And clinging like pitbulls to their "You are wrong and I am right regardless of what the FACTS may be" strategy. What is particularly irritating however is the double think about, and "give it to me because I demand it" attitude, toward socially earned respect. And when it is withheld, for good reaon, there is enough sociopathy in the group to go ahead and just pretend it exists anyway. What goes beyond distortion becomes deceit. [/QUOTE]It is common behavior for one that has no evidence to support their argument to respond with ad homs. Nice diatribe Diane. When you are wrong, you're wrong. Your verbose ad homs won't make it otherwise.
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Onstudent posts:
[QUOTE]transferable .. are you kidding me?[/QUOTE]Yes CMCC credits DO transfer----------Sorry- I know how much you don't want to believe that.
[QUOTE] What kind of research are they doing .. are these RCT's testing chiro sublaxation theories... I would like to see medline or pubmed link to an article(1B level of evidence) like that...lol..or any other research other than some low back pain stuff which physios do just as well. [/QUOTE]And for research: Here is CMCC's latest report(61 pages)
http://registrar.cmcc.ca/NewCmcc/pdf2006/2006ResearchReport.pdf
Do keep in mind, this report is for CMCC ONLY. Some very nice collaborations too- not only with other universities, but also hospitals and the largest clinic in Totonto btw. As for Pubmed, you should know how to look them up yourself. They are there.
[QUOTE] Chiro education is not equal to 7-8 years of university. It is a private career college is it not .. that is FACT. [/QUOTE]3 yrs undergrad(minimum) + 4 yrs DC school(which has been established, repeatedly, above as a "degree granting" institution) equals 7 yrs. 3+4=7. THAT is a fact.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:38:00 PM
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proud
Posts: 944
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BT DC wrote:
>>>>I didnt go to that chiros website, so I dont know what was said about the pro adjustor or anything else. I am not defending that doc. I will defend the fact that my education was 8 years and it was of a level comparable to "university based" education, whatever that means. Some of you try to make it seem like it was a walk in the park. Knowing several PTs and reading some of the comments here, I can tell you that my education was every bit involved. I feel that my education was more involved in some areas such as diagnosis and diagnostic testing, but PTs get more into special patient populations such as post op care, movement disorders, wound care, etc. >>>.
BT DC, This is I think speaking with common sense. My comments on this thread were directed at misrepresentation and nothing belittling your education. To be clear, Mr Sharda has in fact distorted facts by claiming 7 years of university. This claim is false.
The second issue I have taken issue with is how Mr Sharda is using the "pro adjustor". I challange anyone to watch that video and claim otherwise.
And thirdly, I take issue with misrepresentation of the term "doctor". I will not hide the fact that I think this title bestowed upon chiropractic is rather hilarious. But regardless of that fact, I do not think DPT's should misrepresent either. It is obvious to me that the client in that video has the wrong idea here. And that is wrong.
Good and bad PT's...good and bad Chiro's. Mr. Sharda is an example of a bad Chiro that is all( and a CMCC grad...). And it does seem that chiropractic has more of its fair share of seedy characters. But that does not suggest that individuals like BT DC lacks education and is not excellent and ethical at what he does.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:41:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
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What it does suggest, proud, is that BT DC and Jeep are defending this indefensible distortion out of loyalty to something called "chiropractic" and against all reason.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:46:00 PM
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proud
Posts: 944
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jeep wrote:
>>>>>3 yrs undergrad(minimum) + 4 yrs DC school(which has been established, repeatedly, above as a "degree granting" institution) equals 7 yrs. 3+4=7. THAT is a fact.>>>>
Jeep you are missing the point man. No one is claiming these students did not attend school for 7 years. But 4 of them were not at a university. I am not suggesting that indicates anything negative. Clearly CMCC is a capable educational insitution. But "university" means something very specific in the eyes of the public. Is CMCC a recognized "university"? NO it is not. Period.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 3:12:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
Joined: November 11, 2002
From: PA
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Diane, the issue is not your calling into question the "7 years of university-based training". It's your (and others) presentation of misinformation and cheap shots I take issue with.
"it could be all 101 classes.. they just need to have attended and taken classes, passed them.."
"Just take some classes there and come on over to our ..um... colledge, where we'll give you our "degree" when you graduate. "
"So what we have is 3 years of under water basket weaving(potentially) and 4 years of compu college(in similair terms of not being a university)."
"Like I said, a so-called degree offered by a chiropractic private college"
"Comparing CMCC education to medicine, optometry, denistry and physical therapy is a dream in its self."
Ok, you win. far be it from me to try and prevent you from making ignorant generalizations against chiropractors, or jews, african americans, republicans, and pollocks for that matter!
ONStudent:
My point was they are not just doing "RCT's testing chiro sublaxation theories". As you can see, it's a little more involved than that.
To everyone else,
Sorry I've been so defensive on this thread. I usually stay out of it, but spreading ignorance and spreading misinformation is a pet peeve of mine.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 3:14:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Jeep,
You contest that all Chiro schools are accredited by regional accrediting boards. While this may be the case now, this is a recent development, and a clear response to this kind of debate about DC schools not being "real" universities, but rather, at best, trade schools. Shermann, for example, just achieved accreditation within the past 10 years or so. Life College (okay, we'll humor them and call them Life "University") was in accreditation trouble with the CCE for (among other things) refusing to teach diagnostic skills to their students. I've not heard as to their SACHS accreditation staus --- either because they never had it, or because they were in trouble with that organization too.
This conversation is really silly. I for one, spent 5 years in an BS/MSPT program, 1 year in post-graduate clinical fellowship, 4 years in MBA/PhD, and 2 in DPT. It would be dishonest, however, for me to imply that PT education was 12 years long . . . SHEESH!
Am I more educated than the average DC? You bet, but I'm also more educated than the average PT. What does that prove? Not a whole lot. There are speed limits to healing, and that ACL repair isn't going to be rehabilitated any faster!
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 3:16:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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Jeep
Again you have not provided me with any evidence that any university in Canada will transfer any of CMCC courses.
Jeep posts:
"Yes CMCC credits DO transfer----------Sorry- I know how much you don't want to believe that."
I wouldnt really consider that as good evidence...lol
I am begining to wonder what your understanding of research and levels of evidence is...
Jeep posts:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What kind of research are they doing .. are these RCT's testing chiro sublaxation theories... I would like to see medline or pubmed link to an article(1B level of evidence) like that...lol..or any other research other than some low back pain stuff which physios do just as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for research: Here is CMCC's latest report(61 pages)
http://registrar.cmcc.ca/NewCmcc/pdf2006/2006ResearchReport.pdf
Do keep in mind, this report is for CMCC ONLY. Some very nice collaborations too- not only with other universities, but also hospitals and the largest clinic in Totonto btw. As for Pubmed, you should know how to look them up yourself. They are there."
That link does not prove anything... there are no results for any of those studies and I dont see any indication whether they are proper RCT studies.
As for pubmed.. its rather difficult to look up research that doesnt exist.. can you find me any RCT studies(level 1B evidence) that prove sublaxation theory or any other chiropractic treatment other than some minor relief of low back pain which physios can get the same results for..... do you know what a RCT (level 1B evidence) study is?...
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 3:40:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
Joined: November 11, 2002
From: PA
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"can you find me any RCT studies(level 1B evidence) that prove sublaxation theory or any other chiropractic treatment other than some minor relief of low back pain which physios can get the same results for....."
By 'chiropractic treatment', do you mean manipulation, therapeutic exercise/rehab, manual therapy, lifestyle advice, ergonomic recommendations, etc.? If so, then I'm sure you've seen what's out there. I'm not sure how much of that was done by CMCC, but then again, I doubt a large majority of PT colleges put out large high quality RCT's that prove 'physical therapy treamtents'.
The ironic thing is, even if they did put out an RCT supporting 'chiropractic treatments', you would complain that it is biased, right?
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 3:48:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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GEESH Student- Do I have to hold you by the hand? You have read all 61 pages? If so, you would see, that beginning on page 44, the studies and the journals they were published are listed. You can, or should be able to, take it from there. You can do this for all of CMCC research reports if you like. Heck- You can do this for all the DC schools if you like. I've given you the resources, now it's time for you to take a little responsibility for yourself.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 4:04:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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BTDC
I can give you an example of a good RCT trial proving physical therapy treatment to be effective :
Unique Identifier 10721508
Authors Bang MD. Deyle GD.
Authors Full Name Bang, M D. Deyle, G D.
Institution Department of Medicine, Kaiser Permanente Medical Center, Vallejo, Calif. 94590, USA. Mbang96@aol.com
Title Comparison of supervised exercise with and without manual physical therapy for patients with shoulder impingement syndrome.
Source Journal of Orthopaedic & Sports Physical Therapy. 30(3):126-37, 2000 Mar.
Abstract STUDY DESIGN: A prospective randomized clinical trial. OBJECTIVE: To compare the effectiveness of 2 physical therapy treatment approaches for impingement syndrome of the shoulder. BACKGROUND: Manual physical therapy combined with exercise is a commonly applied but currently unproven clinical treatment for impingement syndrome of the shoulder. METHODS AND MEASURES: Thirty men and 22 women (age 43 years +/- 9.1) diagnosed with shoulder impingement syndrome were randomly assigned to 1 of 2 treatment groups. The exercise group performed supervised flexibility and strengthening exercises. The manual therapy group performed the same program and received manual physical therapy treatment. Both groups received the selected intervention 6 times over a 3-week period. The testers, who were blinded to group assignment, measured strength, pain, and function before treatment and after 6 physical therapy visits. Strength was a composite score of isometric strength tests for internal rotation, external rotation, and abduction. Pain was a composite score of visual analog scale measures during resisted break tests, active abduction, and functional activities. Function was measured with a functional assessment questionnaire. The visual analog scale used to measure pain with functional activities and the functional assessment questionnaire were also measured 2 months after the initiation of treatment. RESULTS: Subjects in both groups experienced significant decreases in pain and increases in function, but there was significantly more improvement in the manual therapy group compared to the exercise group. For example, pain in the manual therapy group was reduced from a pretreatment mean (+/- SD) of 575.8 (+/- 220.0) to a posttreatment mean of 174.4 (+/- 183.1). In contrast, pain in the exercise group was reduced from a pretreatment mean of 557.1 (+/- 237.2) to a posttreatment mean of 360.6 (+/- 272.3). Strength in the manual therapy group improved significantly while strength in the exercise group did not. CONCLUSION: Manual physical therapy applied by experienced physical therapists combined with supervised exercise in a brief clinical trial is better than exercise alone for increasing strength, decreasing pain, and improving function in patients with shoulder impingement syndrome.
Publication Type Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial.
Can you provide a link to similar study(RCT) done by chiropractors which is not biased ?
Jeep,
I saw that page and there was no indication of any RCT studies done!
So can you provide me a link that proves others wise?
And I am still waiting for you to show me some good evidence that there are universities that would transfer CMCC courses....
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 4:09:00 PM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
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From: Nebraska
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Jeep,
You are correct. Higher Learning institutions in the US are accredited by the Higher Learning Commision, and in the Case of NE, the NCA region. This accreditation is for the "school" itself and not so much particular program. For example, University of Nebraska Lincoln is accredited by the NCA as a whole.
Specific programs, or professional programs then have (usually) another level of accreditation. In the case for PT it is CAPTE and DC it is CCE.
So my claim that DC's have an un-independent accrediation process was indeed erroneous. I apologize for my ignorance.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 4:49:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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It looks like a 'medical' study to me performed by the deparment of medicine by a medical doctor. They can call what they did physical therapy, and they probably even used physical therapists, but the fact is I can perform the same procedures in my office, and so can most chiropractors. So, that study just provided evidence showing that methods used by chiropractors are effective.
What are you asking for, RCTs performed by chiropractors? Or just a study with chiropractic in the title? Either way, nothing in it would be exclusive to chiropractors, since PTs can use manipulation too.
You can let me know what you think of these:
Triano JJ, McGregor M, Hondras MA, et al. Manipulative therapy versus education programs in chronic low back pain. Spine. 1995;20(8):948-955.
Meade TW, Dyer S, Browne W, et al. Randomised comparison of chiropractic and hospital outpatient management for low back pain: results from extended follow up. BMJ. 1995;311(7001):349-351.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 5:05:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
Joined: November 11, 2002
From: PA
Status: offline
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P.S. - I see that I have a private message from someone, but it is not letting me check it. So, dont think I am ignoring you!
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 5:30:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
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BTDC
I did a critical review on this study. If you read the study you would see that this was not performed by MDs the study was performed by physical therapist with advanced manual therapy and exercise therapy training.
"So, that study just provided evidence showing that methods used by chiropractors are effective."
No it does not. This makes me question your understanding of proper research. For this to be proven chiropractors would have to do an RCT study and prove that their approach is just as effective.
Chiros use manipulation ..and even manipulation done by chiro is somewhat different than if done by a physio..also how well are chiros trained in mobilization..and exercise therapy..? soo you cannot look at a study done by physical therapists and just apply these results to chiro so easily.....
If you read my earlier post .. you will see that I was asking if there was any other RCT research you can provide other than for low back pain which I was aware had research done by chiropractors and physiotherapist as well.
This statement in one of the studies you cited concerns me though: "Those treated by chiropractors had more further treatments for back pain after the completion of trial treatment." How effective was this if needed further treatments....and how long did these treatments continue for...and hospitals and out-patient clinics are very different environments.. out-patient probably being a little more comfortable..ever heard of enviromental bias?...and they only used one out-come measure... so I would probably rate this at about a level 2B of evidence not a 1B RCT.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 13, 2006 2:22:00 AM
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proud
Posts: 944
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Bottom line is that chiropractors attend different educational institutions( not better and not neccesarily worse).
University, correctly or incorrectly, is considered the gold standard for higher education and Mr. Shandra felt a need to affiliate with this level of education. So is he ashamed of where is was taught? Makes one wonder when he clearly used the term "university" to describe his education. Why did he do that?
Would it not have been more accurate for him to say 3 years of university followed by 4 years at chiropractic college? Why not simply say this?
And I find it equally disturbing that Jeep would choose to defend this position. It speaks volumes about him in my opinion. At least BT DC makes sound arguments to defend the education he recieved outside of university, rather than defend a clear distortion of facts by Mr. Shandra.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 13, 2006 4:32:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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Jeeps comments have brought his credibility into question.
I ask him to provide me with evidence that CMCC courses are transferable and he gives me this:
Jeep posts:
"Yes CMCC credits DO transfer----------Sorry- I know how much you don't want to believe that."
Jeep talks about the great research being done at CMCC and gives me a link to the CMCC website.
I look at the website and find no indication of good quality RCT studies proving chiropractic treatments so I ask Jeep to provide me with a link to one if I missed it. Instead Jeep tells me to look again....which makes me wonder if he knows what he is looking for..?
Jeep says that chiropractors have 7 years of university because 3+4=7... well that to me means they have 7 years of education.. 3 years of uni courses and 4 years of private chiro college.
I do have to admitt chiros are good at promoting themselves sometimes at cost of the public and truth. Some of them are very good business men and women they understand that for the profession to survive and to make money they have to promote themselve at any costs.
I think physios need to promote themselves better and start educating the public and the government about what they do and what evidence based practice is all about.. and perhaps this will change things a bit. Physio is not what it used to be 20 years ago .. things are moving toward evidence based practise.. and change is on the horizon for both PTs and DCs.
Good discussion guys
Take care
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 13, 2006 5:09:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Good grief Onstudent-
Your appetite for argument, and your ineptitude at searching things on your own, is incredible. This stuff is not hard to find! Here is information on a 3 yr. RCT CMCC study, begun in 1999----- Had you read the CMCC research information I provided you, as you claimed, you would have certainly seen this.
I have no time today to hang out here -----anything else will have to wait.
----------------------------------------
July 12, 1999, Volume 17, Issue 15
CMCC Awarded $1 Million Research Grant for Headache Study
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Will Assess the Effects of Chiropractic and Drugs
TORONTO, Ontario -- The Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College has received a one million dollar research grant from the Ontario Ministry of Health to conduct a randomized clinical trial comparing chiropractic and medical treatments for tension headaches.
"Obviously, we are very pleased to be undertaking this study here at the college," said Howard Vernon,DC, FCCS(C), the associate dean of CMCC's research department. "This is the largest research grant that CMCC has ever received," he added.
Joining Dr. Vernon on the project are investigators Dr. Gwen Jansz (St. Michael's Hospital, University of Toronto), Dr. Cameron McDermaid (CMCC) and Charles Goldsmith (McMaster University).
Dr. Vernon noted several interesting aspects of the research: A placebo will be used in both the drug therapy and the chiropractic treatment components; the researchers will also look at the effects of the combination of medical and chiropractic treatments. Dr. Vernon noted that the study "provides an opportunity for cooperative research between the medical and chiropractic professions."
The study will take three years to complete and involve approximately 350 people from the Toronto environs. The study group will be solicited through advertisements seeking people who frequently experience headaches (10 times per month). The subjects will be randomly grouped to receive combinations of real or simulated chiropractic care versus low doses of amitriptyline. Amitriptyline is an antidepressant that has also been used for migraine patients.
The subjects will undergo 14 weeks of treatment: four weeks on medication only, then 10 weeks of medication and chiropractic treatments three times weekly. The subjects of the study will be monitored for a year after the treatments.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 13, 2006 5:15:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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has this study been published and peer reviewed?
posting what they will do proves nothing... post the entire study when you have time .. i would be interested in reading through it and see what level of evidence it is...poorly done RCT is still only a level 2B ..
wait i just noticed something ..
"The subjects will undergo 14 weeks of treatment: four weeks on medication only, then 10 weeks of medication and chiropractic treatments three times weekly. The subjects of the study will be monitored for a year after the treatments. "
that study doesnt even have a group.....with just chiropractic treatment alone.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 13, 2006 5:22:00 AM
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Lehmkuhler
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Any chance one or two of the PTDC's on here can put an end to this childish crap. You know, a person who actually has experience with both types of education instead of a bunch of overinflated egos involved in an interprofessional pissing match.
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