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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 1:35:00 AM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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From: Charlotte, NC
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Comparing apples to apples, someone with a MPT from West Virginia several years ago could say that their master's was (with 4 year BS and 3.5 year MPT) 7.5 years. Add an online, university based t-DPT and it's now 9 years. It would be dishonest to call that "9 years of university-based education" --- unless of course some quack chiropractor was trying to act superior by calling themself a "physician" and thumbing their nose at physical therapist education . . .
In my experience, these arguments are almost always started by chiropractors, and usually finished by physical therapists.
Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, MBA/PhD
Physical Therapist
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:32:00 AM
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Jeep
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From: USA
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DFPT knows the info below, yet because of personal bias, is in a pathological state of denial, and resultantly makes silly, shamefully distorted posts. The facts are the facts------get over it DFPT.
[QUOTE] Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College (CMCC) will begin conferring degrees, starting with the August 2005 class.
According to Jean Moss, DC, president of CMCC, “Education in Canada is different than in the United States. Most post-secondary institutions are publicly funded. Privately funded ones are very rare. Until very recently, only universities could grant degrees. Sincere there were no private universities, this essentially meant that only publicly funded universities granted degrees.”
New legislation allows private institutions to grant degrees. To date, only seven institutions have been given that privilege, according to Moss. CMCC is one of them —the only one in Ontario — and will offer a doctor of chiropractic degree.
To be allowed to grant a degree, CMCC had to undergo a rigorous evaluation process under the Post-secondary Educational Quality Assurance Board (PEQAB), which included a full organizational review, a program quality review and two site visitations.
The degree-granting status establishes CMCC’s curriculum on par of that of other primary contact healthcare professions, such as medicine, dentistry and optometry.
“We anticipate future graduates will find that the acceptance of credits for application to post-graduate university programs will be facilitated [with this degree],” said Moss.
Moss said that this achievement resulted from the hard work of many people within CMCC and with the support the Canadian Chiropractic Protective Association, the Canadian Chiropractic Association, the Ontario Chiropractic Association and the College of Chiropractors of Ontario.
Established in 1945, CMCC is a fully accredited, limited enrollment, professional educational institution which operates a network of teaching clinics across Toronto.
Source: Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College, [URL=http://www.cmcc.ca]www.cmcc.ca[/URL] [/QUOTE]
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 4:43:00 AM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
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Like I said, a so-called degree offered by a chiropractic private college that has acquired legislated "degree-granting" status, after many lobbying efforts, and within a favorable political climate, is still not a university sheepskin, bearing the personal seal of a real university chancellor or president, delivered in something called a convocation from an actual publically funded university. No matter how you try to slice it. Too bad Jeep. Just get over it.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 4:49:00 AM
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proud
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Joined: March 22, 2006
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The topic was about the clinical use of a device and moved to how these devices can be utilized inappropriatly.
Mr Sharda is an example of someone who uses TWO devices inappropriately:
1. The silly "pro adjustor"
2 And the use of another couple of devices...the terms "DR" and "university". Both of which are recognizable terms he is distorting to confuse his patients. He did not attend a university to get that diploma, which then makes one wonder where the "Dr" came from in the first place. The public is unaware that this is a misrepresentation in its worst form. I am certain the use of the "dr" term will be revisited within the next 5 years. And it should be for public protection.
Does that scene in Mr Sharda's video where the patient asks "the doctor" a question give anyone else the creeps?
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 5:20:00 AM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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It just amazes me how every thread turns into PTs belittling DCs. I'm sorry I was drawn into this one, but I couldnt resist correcting Diane's ignorant comments (re: 100 level courses).
Let all get over ourselves and stick to the topics. We can debate the use of surface emg all we want, but I dont see why this had to turn into a "mine is bigger than yours" type of debate. I dont know if the insecurity comes from being a PT or Canadian, but it's getting ridiculous.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 6:03:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
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Comparing CMCC education to medicine, optometry, denistry and physical therapy is a dream in its self.
A little while ago CMCC tried to affliate its self with York universiy a real university and the attempt was highly protested and blocked .. shows you how on par thier education is with real universities.
I knew several individuals from undergrad who applied to both PT and Chiro .. and all the ones who got into PT got into CMCC aswell but many who didnt have the marks didnt get into PT but got into CMCC so that gives you a bit of an idea the type of students who get into CMCC.
CMCC has NO manditory pre-reqs only reccomendations.
And there are no insecurities with being a PT or Canadian.. it is some individuals in the chiro professions who have the insecurities and feel the need to mislead people by saying they have 7 years of university education. The truth is the truth whether you except it or not.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 6:10:00 AM
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dfjpt
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My last point: BTDC's only rebuttal to this set of facts is to attack Diane. Pretty lame. I'm outa here now. Please, continue with the original topic.. somthing about a surface EMG or something?
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 9:13:00 AM
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proud
Posts: 944
Joined: March 22, 2006
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BT DC,
I think the point is not in attack of chiropractic per se. Rather to be wary of individuals like Mr. Sharda who distort the truth. And that ethical boundary of distorting facts should not be crossed by any person involved in healthcare( MD, PT, DO, DC).
Surely you are not defending Mr. Sharda?
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 10:27:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Proud-
Surely you are not defending Diane, who profered that DCs undergrad consists of 3 yrs of 101 level classes?
AND:
Students are
required to complete a minimum of three years of university before they are eligible
for admission to the CMCC accredited progra m . A pproximately 91% per cent of students
entering the CMCC program have completed a baccalaureate and 7% have a graduate-level degree.
The CMCC program requires four years of full-time study, including a 12-month
internship in the College’s clinics.
http://www.chiropractic.on.ca/Chiropractic_Education.pdf
Three year(minimum) of undergrade plus 4 years of grad does indeed equal Seven years of
university-level education. It is just silliness for anybody to attempt to argue these FACTS.
AND BTW: Dr. Sharda distorted nothing.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 11:19:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
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"The CMCC program requires four years of full-time study, including a 12-month
internship in the College’s clinics."
this is not 7 years of university.. this 3 years of univeristy level courses and 4 years of a private career college.. that is FACT
so it would be more accurate to state that chiropractors have 3 years of univeristy level courses and then 4 years of private chiropractic college education... unless ofcourse they want to distort the facts...and mislead the public
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 11:24:00 AM
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jlharris
Posts: 477
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From: Nebraska
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It's hard to accept that a "college" with NO association with any University, medical center, or other health care providers could be anything but a trade school, and not a university.
It's weird how the University I graduated from also trained MD's (i.e., real physicians), PT's, DDS's, Nurses, pharmD's, nutritionists, and radiology and nuclear professionals; but absent are DC's. They get their degree from a private "university" that gives out nothing but DC's. Also, while the University and my PT program are accredited by an independent body that also handles other health care profession accreditations, chiropractic (as I believe) uses their own (read - non independent) accreditation. Again, is that wrong. Not necessarily, but it distances them from mainstream.
My point is, they preach and abide by their own "rules" when it's nice for them, but then also want to use the mainstream "University" name that they so try to distance themselves from when it helps them market to the public.
Is that wrong? Maybe not. Especially for a profession that (in the states) seems to actively distance themselves from mainstream medicine and EBP.
Sorry so fired up but just finished reading an "article" in a local magazine in which a DC boldly claims that your newborn need manips to prevent ear infections. He also uses the magic EMG wand to "tell" you where you spine problems are. Awesome.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 12:04:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Onstud posts:
>>>so it would be more accurate to state that chiropractors have 3 years of univeristy level courses and then 4 years of private chiropractic college education... unless ofcourse they want to distort the facts...and mislead the public<<<
No that would NOT be more accurate. Credits taken at CMCC are transferable to other accredited universities. They would not be if they were not accredited, and of "university" level.
Your distortion of the FACTS are misleading the public.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 12:09:00 PM
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proud
Posts: 944
Joined: March 22, 2006
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Jeep said:
>>>AND BTW: Dr. Sharda distorted nothing>>>.
Really? So (1)no distortion with the "pro adjustor"? and (2)he has 7 years of university? Well here are the answers:
(1) Quite distorted
(2) No he does not. Transferable perhaps( at the discretion of the university), but certainly not university level or automatically equivalent.
Face it Jeep, its distorted facts.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 12:10:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Jason must not have read the link I provided, when he posted:
>>>>It's hard to accept that a "college" with NO association with any University, medical center, or other health care providers could be anything but a trade school, and not a university.<<<
CMCC has developed relationships – both formal and informal –
with other universities in Canada. For example, faculty and students of CMCC
are currently conducting research with fellow scientists at the University of Alberta,
University of Calgary, University of Saskatchewan, University of Toronto and
Ryerson University.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 12:34:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Jason also erroneously, posts:
[QUOTE] my PT program are accredited by an independent body that also handles other health care profession accreditations, chiropractic (as I believe) uses their own (read - non independent) accreditation. Again, is that wrong.[/QUOTE]It is YOU that is wrong. See below. And btw- since you are in Nebraska------YUP-----it is the SAME agency that accredits your trade school.
Northwestern Health Sciences University is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association (NCA). The NCA was founded in 1895 as a membership organization for educational institutions. The Association is one of six regional institutional accrediting associations in the United States. Through its Commissions, it accredits and grants membership to educational institutions in the 19-state North Central region. The Higher Learning Commission is recognized by the United States Secretary of Education and by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation. Accreditation was extended to Northwestern in 1988, and was renewed in 1993 and 2001. The University's next comprehensive evaluation has been designated for the 2009-2010 academic year.
Higher Learning Commission
30 N. LaSalle St., Suite 2400
Chicago, IL 60602-2504
Voice: (800) 621-7440; (312) 263-0456
Fax: (312) 263-7462
Web: [URL=http://www.ncahigherlearningcommission.org]www.ncahigherlearningcommission.org[/URL]
The Doctor of Chiropractic program offered by the University is accredited by the Commission for Accreditation of the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE). The Council on Chiropractic Education is recognized by the United States Secretary of Education as the official accrediting body for chiropractic education. Northwestern has been a member of CCE. since the Commission's inception in 1965. Accreditation was extended to Northwestern in 1971, and renewed in 1974, 1978, 1982, 1985, 1991, 1998, and 2005. The next program evaluation is designated for the 2012-2013 academic year. CCE is the agency to which complaints about the compliance of the program with CCE Standards should be addressed.
Council on Chiropractic Education
Commission for Accreditation
8049 N. 85th Way
Scottsdale, AZ 85258-4321
Voice: (480) 443-8877
Fax: (480) 483-7333
E-mail: cce@cce-usa.org
Web: [URL=http://www.cce-usa.org]www.cce-usa.org[/URL]
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 12:36:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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Joined: July 25, 2006
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Jeep you really have the FACTs mixed up on this one..
"Credits taken at CMCC are transferable to other accredited universities. They would not be if they were not accredited, and of "university" level."
transferable .. are you kidding me?
Where are you getting this information? Show me some evidence.
I dont see how any Canadian university would transfer any of CMCC courses .. i just dont see it happening. CMCC course cannot be used to apply to med school or to PT school or to full fill any other university program requirements.. where are you getting this information.
CMCC tried to associate themselves with York University in Toronto and they slammed the door in thier face! Why would that happen?
"CMCC has developed relationships – both formal and informal –
with other universities in Canada. For example, faculty and students of CMCC
are currently conducting research with fellow scientists at the University of Alberta,
University of Calgary, University of Saskatchewan, University of Toronto and
Ryerson University. "
What kind of research are they doing .. are these RCT's testing chiro sublaxation theories... I would like to see medline or pubmed link to an article(1B level of evidence) like that...lol..or any other research other than some low back pain stuff which physios do just as well.
Chiro education is not equal to 7-8 years of university. It is a private career college is it not .. that is FACT.
I do have to give it up to Chiros they do a good job at promoting themselves at all costs.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 1:06:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
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And clinging like pitbulls to their "You are wrong and I am right regardless of what the FACTS may be" strategy. What is particularly irritating however is the double think about, and "give it to me because I demand it" attitude, toward socially earned respect. And when it is withheld, for good reaon, there is enough sociopathy in the group to go ahead and just pretend it exists anyway. What goes beyond distortion becomes deceit.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 1:33:00 PM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
Joined: November 11, 2002
From: PA
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So the problem is it is a private college and not a government funded university?
I dont know about CMCC, but the chiropractic colleges I know of in the states are regionally accredited just like other colleges and universities.
The reason that CMCC was shut out of York was probably mainly due to politics. Same thing happened at the Florida State University. That was slightly different because not only were anti chiro groups fighting against it, so were the local straight chiro college. They feared they would lose business.
I didnt go to that chiros website, so I dont know what was said about the pro adjustor or anything else. I am not defending that doc. I will defend the fact that my education was 8 years and it was of a level comparable to "university based" education, whatever that means. Some of you try to make it seem like it was a walk in the park. Knowing several PTs and reading some of the comments here, I can tell you that my education was every bit involved. I feel that my education was more involved in some areas such as diagnosis and diagnostic testing, but PTs get more into special patient populations such as post op care, movement disorders, wound care, etc.
"What kind of research are they doing .. are these RCT's testing chiro sublaxation theories... "
This is what irritates me, ignorant comments and cheap shots. If you would take a minute to check out their website, you would see the type of research they are performing.
http://www.cmcc.ca/research.htm
All I ask is for people to be fair in their assessments and be more objective when making your posts. Some of you consistently generalize chiropractors and attack our education and expertise.
I'm willing to admit there we have our fair share of quacks out there. However, just as I dont judge all PTs according to the PTs I know (over treat, use mostly passive modalities and cookbook exercise prgrams), I would expect the same courtesy. It's great to be 'proud' of your given profession, but putting down others is unecessary.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:04:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Buddy asks:
[QUOTE] So the problem is it is a private college and not a government funded university? [/QUOTE]No that is not the problem. What is causing a few here to have a meltdown, is the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities granting CMCC "degree" status....putting it on par with the public universities. See below.
Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College (CMCC) recently announced that it has become the first private institution in Ontario to be granted the privilege of offering a professional health care degree. Essentially, this means that beginning with the August 2005 entering class, CMCC graduates will now officially earn the doctor of chiropractic degree following completion of the college's four-year chiropractic program.
Prior to the Post-Secondary Education Choice and Excellence Act of 2000, only publicly funded colleges/universities in Ontario could apply for degree-granting status; thus, CMCC's doctor of chiropractic diploma was not recognized by statute as a degree.* The Honourable Mary Anne Chambers, Minister of Training, Colleges, and Universities, granted consent to CMCC to offer the doctor of chiropractic degree following a rigorous evaluation process by the Post-Secondary Educational Quality Assurance Board, which was established in conjunction with the Act. The board's evaluation included a full organizational review, a program quality review, and two site visits to CMCC.
While in some ways a technical distinction, CMCC emphasizes that "degree-granting status is recognition of the quality of the college's doctor of chiropractic program.
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Re: Computerized Spinal Exams - November 12, 2006 2:14:00 PM
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dfjpt
Posts: 238
Joined: April 9, 2006
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So I guess you think it's ok to schmoosh it all in as "7 years of university-based training"? In order to imply something that is not quite true? Just pretend it is, say it is, and maybe the public will fall for it? As a member of the public, I feel my intelligence being assaulted by this. And I'm sure, universities would also feel insulted by the implications, those that strive for excellence.
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