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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 1:42:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
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From: Australia
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Doug,
I think it is a good combination; more scope to pick out the best bits of both professions. Your attitude is the best option in this competitive world; in Oz there are many who think the two professions of chiro and PT should align more and work in cahoots, not in angst.
However, the chiro world here is different from the USA; here they are Uni graduates.
Nari
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 4:41:00 PM
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jesse14
Posts: 21
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OnstudentPT,
while i totally agree with your view of one's profession being part of their identity (very well said actually), i am a tad confused. You say that you don't like chiro b/c all they do is adjust while PT's educate and rehabiliate the patient, yet you say you don't like it if a chiro advertises that they can perform certain types of PT (which they are trained to do). You see were your logic kind of goes off course?? In other words, you don't chiro b/c u feel they are one trick ponies, yet when they try to do more, don't like it and feel they shouldn't. So in essance, there is nothing they can do to "win" you over :)
Other than that, you're words are very true and i enjoy reading your thoughts! (that was not sarcastic in any way)
Doug:
You are a professional person in every sense of the word and i look forward to further conversations with you down the road. All the best!
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 6:11:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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Good point Jesse
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 6:12:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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Nari,
Thank You. Where are you from?
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 6:44:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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Doug,
I'm from the Antipodes, the home/s of Maitland, Mulligan, Mercer, Jull, Hodges, Moseley, McKenzie, Butler, Shacklock,and others who have spread a word or two around the world.
Actually, Australia, also referred to as Oz...
Nari
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 3:25:00 AM
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treybien
Posts: 85
Joined: August 5, 2002
From: Milwaukee, WI
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Back to the education end of this argument. It seems that only recently that DC's have tapped into the physio/physical therapy/rehab terms. I just read the current curriculum from one post and wonder what the curriculum was like 5 years ago, 10 years ago, etc and how much rehab stuff that has classically been more Physio/PT chiros are now tackling? My point being that it seems that more exercise bases rehab is being taught in Chiro School then ever before.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 4:24:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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I just find advertising that they can offer physiotherapy/ physical therapy .. is just misleading because the term is soo closely related to Physiotherapists... perhaps it would be a better idea to just advertise that they do rehabilitation instead.
Chiros are and will probably continue to broaden there base with things like exercise rehab to help ensure the survival of the profession.
The thing is that PTs need to protect thier scope of practise to protect the survival of thier profession as well. Its fraustrating to see sometimes how many people in our profession seem so oblivious to this fact.
Essentially if we end up saturating the market with 2 professions who can offer the exact same thing ... the competition may become very fierce and many individuals may find it hard to make a living in either of the two fields.
Like I said at the end of the day ... people just want to be able to make enough money to support themselves and their families while doing something they enjoy.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 4:42:00 AM
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touchiba
Posts: 101
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From: PA
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I dont really see it as a battle between two professions. We're all just practioners of physical medicine and manual therapy, trying to do the best for our patients. If there is any competition, it should be between 'us' and surgery happy orthos and overmedicating family physicians. Where I practice, MDs only refer to PTs for post surgical care or for cases where they dont think surgery will help at all. They wont refer to me at all unless the patient asks to be referred to a chiropractor.
Really though, what's the difference between me and the PT down the street? Why would you be hostile towards me, but accept the PT? Maybe that PT is abusing modalities and overtreating, whereas I would be practicing very close to the way you would. No matter the type of professional, I think we need to judge the person and not their title.
Of course in the case where you dont know the person, it would be reasonable to refer or suggest the profession you feel more comfortable with.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 5:47:00 AM
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AllenB
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Several posts back, Painfreeguy mentioned that only 33 of 80 (numbers something like that) graduated in his DC program.
DCs - is this percentage similar to where you went to school? If so, why the high dropout rate? ANY professional program will have some dropout but over half? If this number is consistent, it makes one wonder why a DC program would accept so many students if they know 1/2 will drop out. Again, these may not be realistic numbers but they were posted by a DC. Do these students truly quit the program or do they finish later?
Thanks.
AllenB
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 5:49:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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OnStudent,
Just want to add. This "battle" is not just between PTs and DCs....it shouldn't be. Did you know other professions are also expanding into PT profession? Case in point, many MDs are practicing “PT”. They may call it rehab or therapy or whatever. However, the CPT codes are the same for TA, TE, US…etc; they get billed the same way. People that are performing these services under the MD’s direct supervision. The people includes RNs, PAs, LVNs, Medical Assistants, Technicians….etc. Legally, they all can practice “PT” under the MDs supervision…..I don’t know of any law that’s preventing it. If you know of any, I would LOVE to hear about it. Under Medicare rule, one doesn’t even have to a licensed PT to practice PT under the “incident to” rule because they are under the Direct supervision of the MD. Now, how much Physical Therapy do MDs really know? Can they REALLY supervise PT services? How much training do you think they get in medical school? (I am curious about it myself, so if there is any medical doctors reading this post, I would like to hear from you). I guess depends on their specialty. How do you feel about MDs performing PT services in their own clinics? It happens all the time. So you see, this is not just a battle between the PTs and DCs. It sounds like a batter among all professions. I agree with you 100% about we as PTs should protect our profession. So, how do we go about doing that? What do you think? You see how political this thing can get? I just “love” politics…haha…
Doug
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 6:32:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
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From: Texas
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AllenB,
Great question. I will give it my best shot to answer it. But remember I am answering it ONLY based on my own experience and my own class since other schools might be different. My answers, some are facts and some are just my own personal opinion.
Fact: True, only 33 graduated with me from my ORIGINAL class. Some transferred to other DCs school, only 3 dropped out in my first year. I can only remember 3. Some were dropped down to lower Tri-semesters but eventually did graduate. In my graduating class, we also had students from upper/previous classes graduated with us. Some were held back because they weren’t able to pass the clinical entrance exam, some had poor grades, and some had family problems….etc. After graduation, you still have to battle through national board exam(s), usually Part IV. Side info: Part IV exam alone is about $1200 each time you take it……makes PT board exam a whole lot cheaper. Try to fail that bad boy 3 or 4 times.
My opinion: Several reasons why the high drop out/down rate, I think: 1. DC schools in general is easier to get in because lack of state funding so the school needs as many students as possible. When that happens, they get people from all walks of life. People with BAs degree and never had much experiences in the clinical setting, people with computer back grounds, people with music back ground….you get the point. Although they do need to finish up their prerequisites, they weren’t ready for the strictly science based full load. 2. The class load is very very heavy. It rages from 25 credit hours to 30 or 33 per Tri-semester (Spring, Summer, Fall); 18 is very light for DC school. This compares to undergraduate school is no walk in the park. 3. Many get so burned out and decide to take the summer off so they dropped down with the lower class. 4. The curriculum is so hectic; some just flat out can’t make it; they drop out. 5. Personal problems, e.g. Wife/husband can’t compete with 8-7 hours and study until 2 am….things like that. 6. Transfer to other professions. One in my class transferred to Dental School.
There are other reasons, but I have to stop here to attend my patients now. I hope this answers your question. Let me know if you have other questions.
Have a nice day,
Doug
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 6:36:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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I would think lobbying for some sort of legislative change to protect anyone other than physiotherapists from using the term Physiotherapy/physical therapy would be a start.
Also protecting the scope of practise by preventing others who do not meet the specific educational criteria for performing physiotherapy services unless they meet the specific physiotherapy educational criteria(there would have to be a specific criteria for what services should be considered unique to physiotherapists only and educational standards for all the services they provide) . I think this would be a very difficult thing to accomplish though.
Another thing which could be helpful is really monitoring the amount of students being admitted to DC and PT schools(by PT and DC associations, governments or schools .. I am not sure how this would work) so to keep the demand and supply aspect of things balanced but this would be difficult in the states because there are soo many for profit private schools for both PTs and DCs so this might be easier to accomplish in Canadian public schools for PTs.
But I think supply and demand is an important aspect because we dont want PTs and DCs spending so much time and money on education and not being able to get a proper job or make decent living its just not fair.
I am just throwing things out there.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 7:15:00 AM
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proud
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Joined: March 22, 2006
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Guys,
All this talk of protecting territory is missing the mark in my opinion.
In the end it will come down to who is providing the best care as measured by the evidence on outcomes. Patient satisfaction has historically been used as a guide. This trend will slowly dissolve in the face of more stringent healthcare cost containment efforts. As well it should. Patient satisfaction has very little to do with efficient and effective care. A little research into "patient satisfaction" demonstrates that it poorly reflects the overall outcome and does not correlate well with reduced healthcare costs.
Essentially, Physiotherapists have lead the way in terms of the direction MSK rehabilitation takes. Currently, the best and brightest in the US are choosing PT as the career path, which is healthy for the PT profession. It only makes survival sense for others to follow our lead, and PT's can do little about it.
I would not be concerned about what "others" are doing and focus on remaining current with the literature and providing exceptional patient care and outcomes. As always the cream rises to the top. Eventually one provider will emerg as the singular choice. And it will not distinquish who that will be based upon title. It will be based on the research and linked outcomes.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 7:25:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
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Just need to add: When in grade/high school------we had "PT"------Otherwise known as "gym class"!!
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 7:35:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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Proud,
I do hope you are right.
"It only makes survival sense for others to follow our lead, and PT's can do little about it. "
thats the whole point.. if chiros start revamping thier system and approach .. do we not as a profession need to protect others from encroaching on our scope...?
And again supply and demand is also a big issue IMO ... it just doesnt seem fair to alow schools to keep poping out all these students (with all this debt) without adequate job opportunities.. this would seem like a more relevant problem for new DC students at the moment but could become a problem for PTs down the road as well..?
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 7:53:00 AM
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proud
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Joined: March 22, 2006
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ONstudentPT555,
I agree, this is a very transitional time at the moment in this area of patient care. It will take time for the era of EBM to usher in sweeping changes pertaining to perferred providers. I once mentioned 5-10 years. Try to remain patient.
Historically, leaders always get recognized regardless of the field so again, I would not be overly concerned about others following and adapting to the changes. The key is to continue to lead and demonstrate commitment to our research efforts and provide exceptional cost effective solutions to patient outcomes. The tide is already turning in the correct direction, and if you follow the research lead, you will have no problems. I gather you are a student? You have chosen wisely and have embarked on a career with a tremendous past and an even more exciting future.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 8:33:00 AM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
Joined: July 25, 2006
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yes I am a student .. I go to the school that pretty much invented the Evidence based model.... it should be interesting to see what the future brings.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 10:14:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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Hum...I learn something new every day.
Thanks Nari from Oz
Oh, my PT department chair Dr. Giovanni De Domenico is also from Oz...
Now that's a smart guy there...the man's got more degrees than a thermometer :)
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 11:40:00 AM
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AllenB
Posts: 43
Joined: June 19, 2005
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PainFreeGuy -
Thanks for the response concerning DC students and the dropout rate. I don't know how the selection and/or recruitment process works but it seems that as a group DC students are getting in WAY over there head more than PT students. Would you agree? One problem may be the necessary requirments to get into DC school, which I'm still confused about ....
........ Jesse14 - you never did tell me if DC programs in the US require an entrance exam (like the GRE for us) and a 4-yr college degree. Someone else addressed the issue but didn't answer it directly. If someone is out there considering PT school, they must complete a 4 yr degree, take a substantial amount of science prereqs, make a competetive score on the GRE. After going through all that and paying tuition for PT school, it makes sense that PT doesn't seem to have the dropout rates that DC programs.
Again, I don't know a great deal about how DC programs work so I welcome some knowledge on this. From the info provided thus far, I question the ethics of the admission committee of at least one DC program.
Thanks.
AllenB
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - November 1, 2006 1:07:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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AllenB,
When I was in DC school, they were working on an entrance exam called CCAT. I think it stands for Chiropractic College Admission Test. But as far as I know it has not been implemented yet.
If you do have questions regarding DC schools' prerequisites, selections, curriculums, and related topics, it wouldn’t hurt to Google search Chiropractic Schools. Click on any one school, you should have all the answers you are looking for.
Try following:
http://www.nuhs.edu/
http://www.txchiro.edu/
http://www.parkercc.edu/
Hope this helps
Doug
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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