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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 2:03:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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I think education comes down to quality not quantity. I think you can spend years learning something and be good at what you learned but if you can't really apply it or use it in a clinical setting (if thats where you choose to work).. then what was the use of it.
I had a placement last week. This lady had been seeing a chiropractor for almost ten years. She ran out of money and funding so she came to see the physio.. we found out that all the chiro had been doing is back manips for her pain .. never adressing the root causes such as posture and mucle weakness .. so we did some education and in addition to any modality we used .. we also prescribed exercises to help her get better in the long run.
Do you see the difference?
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 3:45:00 PM
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jesse14
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Doug:
Amen! Very well said... so you're both a DC and PT eh? Which did you get first if you don't mind me asking?
ONstudentPT:
No, i don't see the difference. One anecdotal case of a DC just doing manipulation doesn't tell me what PTs can do that DC's can't. The DC's that i've come into contact with (except for a few wack jobs... in my opinion, those who destroy the profession) educate the pt on what they might be doing wrong and instruct them on how to achieve a pain free life (or as close as possible).
Please answer my questions :)
Oh yeah, what evidence do you have that a DC education is subpar to that of a pt?? That is what you were insinuating wasn't it?
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:05:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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OK from my experience I have found that physiotherapists education is more detailed and very focused on patient education(home programs), exercise prescription and mobilization (rather than grade 5 manips).
From my understanding ( and correct me if I am wrong because I am no expert on what they are teaching in chiro school) chiropractic education is focused on the value of manipulation for thier primary treatment.
So it seems like they have two very different pholosophies/approaches to treatment.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:23:00 PM
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jlharris
Posts: 468
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From: Nebraska
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Jesse,
My education was 7 years to get my final degree of DPT. 4 years of undergrad and 3 years (8 semesters) of PT school. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but PT schools in the states also have fairly strict admission standards where many (eg Palmer) DC schools do not. Also, my training was done at a University Medical Center with MD's, PA's, DDS's, PharmD's, etc and not seperated from the rest of the medical community.
_____________________________
Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:25:00 PM
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jesse14
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I can't fathom how a 2 year program is more detailed than a 4 year program. That makes absolutley zero sense to me.
http://cmcc.ca/undergrad/Dept_Prof_Ed/Applied_chiropractic_studies.htm
That's a link to some of the therapies chiro's are taught. Notice the courses that teach exercise prescription and home care techniques... it's not all adjusting my friend.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:38:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From: Indianapolis
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I thought this site had moved passed the PT vs DC stuff?
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:39:00 PM
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jlharris
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It's more fun than rational thought and treatment discussion, lol
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Jason L. Harris, PT, DPT
My PT Blog
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 4:41:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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Jason,
PTs in Canada need a 4 year undergrad degree to be able to apply to a 2 year MPT program (year round with only 1 month off in the summer). It is very competitive usually requiring at least a 3.65 GPA just to be invited for an interview. Some schools get up to 900 applicants for only 60 positions.
I know several students from undergrad who were not accepted to any PTs programs because they did not meet the academic cut-offs but were granted acceptance to chiropractic college.
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 5:58:00 PM
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AllenB
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jessie14 -
I seriously don't know but is an undergrad degree required for entry into a DC program in the US? Also, do you guys take the GRE or similar test before the application process? What about science prereqs (physics, chems, stats .... etc.) Just curious, not trying to start anything, I just don't know.
I'm a 2nd year student in a 3 yr DPT program ..... an undergrad degree with several sciences as prereqs, minimum of 150 hrs of observation, competitive GPA and GRE score were all required before an interview was granted. What I just described is probably about what most DPT programs are requiring these days ..... someone out there may have a different view on that though.
Thanks.
AllenB
DPT student
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 6:53:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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Jesse,
Unlike most DC/PTs, I went to Chiropractic school first. Most would finish PT school first and then go to Chiro school. There were two PTs in my class alone. I applied for PT school during my last year of my clinical rotation. Being both a DC and a PT definitely has its advantages. I know you had questions about the two professions. So, please address the questions to me and I will do my best to answer them for you. As far as the earning potential is concern, I would say sky is the limit for both professions if you do it right. The mean thing is that do it in an honest way. In general, here in Texas, first year PTs would be making more….average about 50-60 K; ranging from 40s to 80s, especially if you can speak Spanish. I can not speak for other Chiropractors out there, but when I first came out of Chiro school, my best offer was around 3K/month and without paid malpractice insurance and I had to pay out of my own pocket for all my CEUs. Now if you are a good marketer and are business minded, you can open up your own practice. You may struggle a little at first but you will be making more in the long run. As for you right now, I would without a doubt recommend PT program. It’s an awesome profession with much more flexibility. As a matter of fact, I am encouraging two of my techs to pursue PT school. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Doug
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 7:06:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
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From: Texas
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Jason,
I agree with you that DC schools’ have much lower requirements than PT school. As a matter of fact the biggest reason I went to Chiropractic school is that I wasn’t able to get into MD school. And, I didn’t want to wait for a whole entire year to reapply. But I have no regrets, being a DC has opened up many doors for me. However, my ultimate goal is to become an orthopedic surgeon. I’ve not given up on medical school yet. Once my wife finishes up her graduate school, I may consider MD school. Oh, another thing, although DC school is easier to get in but it’s hard to get out. My class started out with 84 people, and only 33 graduated with me. Now, it’s getting harder to get into Chiro schools. For one thing, DCs schools are starting to require higher GPA and a Bachelor’s degree before applying. I am not sure when but they will have a CCAT like the MCAT soon. On top of all that, DCs require to take 4 national boards and one PT (Physiotherapy) board (in Texas), and a state Jurisprudence exam before licensing. Most Chiropractic schools are privately owned, so the tuition is quite high. I finished with well over 100k in debt after graduation. So, you see, to become a DC truly takes dedication. I won’t go into it but we all know what we had to go through to be licensed as a PT…. 3 years of ass kicking/whipping, day-less nights, night-less days, and that brutal exam……and all that good stuff…..I still remember it like was yesterday…haha….. Well, this is just a little side info on Chiro school.
Doug
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 7:15:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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Doug,
As a DC/PT you give a very interesting perspective and jesse14 may actually get some of the answers to his question from an unbiased source but what made you decide to go into PT after becoming a DC?
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 7:33:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
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From: Texas
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OnStudent,
No offense, you asked “Do you see the difference?” Well, I know the difference! It is you that need to do more research on it. Nobody twisted your pt’s arm and make her to go see the Chiro. You made sound like the Chiro drained her entire savings. Did she see him for 3x per week for 10 yrs? Or 1x/month for 10 yrs. Man, I’ve seen my Dentist at least 3 or 5 times per year for at least 10 or 20 years and all he does was taking a min. to say hi and off I go to get my teeth cleaned by the not so gorgeous hygienist. I also go in to see my PCP at least 2 or 3 times a yr. All he does was talk to me for 10 min. Let me ask you, does that make them a bad Dentist and Medical doctor? Do you know how many times I’ve heard patients telling me they went to this PT clinic and after the PT eval he/she hardly saw the PT again and all they did was to putting him/her on the bike for 20 mins. Many tell me that they will never going back to that PT place. I’ve even seen first handed a PT ordered a Continuous US on a pt with acute bursitis. Let me ask you, does that make all PT bad PTs? The truth is if you are already biased and stereotyped a profession, there is nothing that profession can do right in your eye; you will over look the good and focus on the bad part of the profession. So, before you say anything about a DC, please take you time and meet a DC and spend time with him/her. You might think differently after that.
Now, we all know that there are some political issues between the two professions. And if you read my previous posts, you know I am not a bad fan on political issues. To me, my goal is to learn as much as I can to benefit my patients. Heck I meet many PTAs know a lot more than I do even though I had more schooling. My front desk person only finished high school, but she taught me so much about billing, insurance, medicare rules/regulation etc. PT is a GREAT GREAT profession and I love it with a passion. I am glad you are in the profession and wish more would become PT. But at the same time, please keep an open mind and learn as much as possible to benefit our patients. Well, it’s getting late here and I’ve gotta a long day tomorrow. So I’ll stop here for now
Doug
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 7:37:00 PM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
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From: Texas
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OnStudent,
Just saw your question now. It's not going to be a short answer. So, I'll save it for tomorrow...first thing in the morning. Study hard bud.
Doug
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Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 30, 2006 8:13:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
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Doug,
I guess I am a little biased towards PT because I would hope to think that a PT would play a bigger role in patient education and preventative care but I am sure there are PTs out there who have other motives.
I guess the main thing I got from that particular experience was how misinformed and uneducated the general public can really be at times about rehabilitation in general. Going to chiro for 10 years and not seeking advice from other health care professionals about that condition. This kind of played into my earlier point about how I thought it would be important for the terms physiotherapy/ physical therapy to be protected so the public isnt subjected to further confusing and misleading information.
And can we really compare chiros visits to MD or dentist visits.. perhaps...depends on your perspective i guess..
I am sure there are many DCs who are fine individuals .. hey I even have two good friends who are in chiro college.. we have had some interesting discussions.
"Study hard bud"? I do study hard.. ( That wasnt a typical and unprofessional discriminatory remark against a student was it?)
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 5:48:00 AM
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jesse14
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Doug:
I think you'll be an excellent resource for information since you've seen it from both sides as a DC as PT. I'm awaiting your answer to OnstudentPT's question since i have the same one :)
ONstudentPT:
I think i've come to the realization that you either don't know what a PT can do that a DC can't or you believe there is nothing more they can do...correct me if i'm wrong.
About admissions. I'm not sure how that has any relation to the question i asked about competetant practitioners. Trully, does a 3.2 GPA and a 3.5 GPA really determine how someone will treat pt's out of school?? I hight doubt it. So many factors contribute to an individuals GPA (if you recall, i explained my own situation to you when you called me on it over at the SDN). I know this is some anecdotal evidence but i was just as my schools continuing education fair and both the cmcc and all 4 ontario PT schools were there. The cmcc rep told me that they already recieved 1100 applications for the incoming class of 07. They do accept 190 students but 1100 is still competitive. Once i apply to PT school ( i gotta get on that soon lol) i'll be sure to tell you my outcome. To be completly honest, if i got into both chiro and PT the only way i'd go PT is due to the huge difference in tuition. Being in less debt it a lot less stressful than being in tons!!
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 6:49:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
Joined: October 26, 2006
From: Texas
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Hey OnStudent,
Man, you posted it at 12:13am….I guess you do study hard. And no, that was NOT “a typical and unprofessional discriminatory remark against a student”. I am a student for life and I admire the people that are going to school and be educated. As a matter of fact, I am still taking classes right now on weekends and weeknights after work. “Study hard bud” is my way of saying “Good Luck” from one student to another.
Now to answer your question of why I went to PT school post Chiro school. You are not the first to ask me that question and certainly won’t be the last. I hope I have enough room to write.
Remember I told you that a lot “old school” Chiros all they wanted is to manipulate? Well, I am one of the new generation Chiros that thinks Manipulation doesn’t cure EVERYTHING. Manipulation definitely has its place in manual therapy but we need to expand from that. Going through Chiro school I only had the opportunity to take two rehab classes: PM & R I and II. In those classes we went over US, E-stim, hot/cold packs etc. Active care was also part of the PM & R course. I can not say about other Chiro schools but I felt my school was weak in this area. Other Chiro schools maybe stronger in Rehab area. I’ve met graduates from Parker College of Chiropractic and they were much better trained than I was in this area.
So, doing my rotation I would treat my patients with US, E-stim, manipulation, massage….just anything I can do with the training I had. At the same time I was interning with two other PTs from my class. PTs were doing things I’ve never seen; I had only read them in rehab books. PTs were doing gait analysis, active rehab, balance activities etc. Most of my patients, or most Chiropractic patients, were highly functional and high level and didn’t require much to get better. But, one day I had a little boy came in with CP and was in a wheel chair. The mother asked for rehab and to help the boy in tone reduction…….as unlucky as it maybe I was “on call” that day so I ended up with this patient. Guess what, I went blank!!! First thing came to my mind was E-stim….and then what? How do I get the boy out of his chair? Do I just pick him up and carry him? How does the chair work? I started to sweat…..heck I was drawing blank. After that initial visit, I went online and checked for treatments for Peds rehab and found out PTs were at the forefront in treating this condition. So, I went and spoke to my PT friends in my class and I was truly humbled by their knowledge. To make a long story short, that was the first time I thought about PT program.
This post is getting long. I would like to tell you more, but I have two patients waiting. So, I’ll write more throughout the day. I apologize for not getting back to you “first thing in the morning”…..I got stuck in a meeting.
More on me later….
Doug
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 6:55:00 AM
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PHSPT
Posts: 119
Joined: December 1, 2005
From: Oklahoma
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Yeah student for life is about right....man Doug where are you now??on your 4th degree??BS, DC, MPT, BS... sounds like some sort of martial arts black belt.. :)
p.s check your messgs
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 11:08:00 AM
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PainFreeMan
Posts: 42
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From: Texas
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Jesse/OnStudent,
So that was the first time I thought about PT school. Before that I didn’t know much about PT and what PTs do. After talking to my PT classmates, I realized that DC/PT would be a great combo. Not many people are DC/PT in Texas. I can use the best of both worlds to help patients. But the only thing I was contemplating on was do I want to go through 3 more years of school? Most my friends thinking I was crazy going back for a Master’s degree when I already have a Doctorate degree. But, in my mind I never thought the PT degree as inferior to my DC degree. My mean focus was what I can do to learn more; how do I utilize what I’ve learned into the clinical setting. I never cared about all the political issues between the two professions. And on a selfish note, I thought I’ll have two licenses, and I’ll always have a job no matter what; if one goes down I can always fall back on the other. During my break in between semesters, I volunteered at a local HealthSouth rehab clinic (regardless what had happened at HealthSouth, I saw some great PTs there). While there I saw other things I’ve never seen before: aquatic therapy, prosthetic training, gait training, balance training….etc. And that really reinforced my decision of becoming a PT even if it’s going to take 3 more years. So, during my last semester of Chiro school I applied for PT program. And the rest is history.
Ok, hope that answers your question. I want to wish both of you good luck and looking forward of becoming your colleague.
Doug
_____________________________
Douglas Lu, DC, PT, MPT
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Re: salary for a new PT vs a new DC - October 31, 2006 12:02:00 PM
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ONstudentPT555
Posts: 224
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Jesse14,
I think Doug did an excellent job in explaining the difference between the two types of education and approaches.
Doug,
You seem very passionate about what you do .. thats an awesome thing!
I do admitt I am biased toward PT for obvious reasons.. in my opinion ( and i think everyone is entitled to one) the PT profession is the master of rehabilitation and PTs should be confident about thier skills and not have to rely on DCs. PTs should do what PTs do and DCs should do what they do in my opinion.
I dont agree with some of the pholosophies behind chiropractics and dont really like it when chiros advertise they can offer physiotherapy.. again this just personal opinion.
The chiro and physio debate is a difficult one because I think the thing that humans beings in general want the most is to feel that they are significant in some way or for someone. So when you critize someones profession which they have spent years of thier life studying for and which is still a big part of their life now.. you in a way attack thier significance.. this ofcourse understandably leads those individuals to retaliate.
I do think there are good PTs and DCS and bad PTs and DCs.. just like in every other field.. at the end of the day i think most people just want make a decent living to support themselves and their family.
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