Will PT salaries increase? (Full Version)

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ONstudentPT555 -> Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 6:58:00 AM)

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone thinks that PT salaries will eventually increase in Canada and/or the US?

From what I have heard and seen on job postings(internet/newspapers) the salaries in hospitals are about 55 000($30/hour) to start and go up to about 75 000 for staff therapists and up to 90 000 for supervisory positions.

Also What I have seen is that for private clinics staff PTs are getting around 45 dollars an hour so they make up 86 000 if they work the normal 40 hours a week but I guess if they had multiple jobs and worked up to 50 hours a week they could make up to 100 000.

For a PT who owns and runs a private clinic I have seen numbers ranging from 40 000-175 000.

Are these numbers correct??

Any thoughts?



Sean Weatherston -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 7:13:00 AM)

$45 an hour for staff PT in private clinics?

Sheesh, I'll sell my private clinic to make that much!

Sean



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 7:18:00 AM)

Thats what have seen for job postings in newspapers and internet in private clinics.

"The starting salary is $38-$42/ hour. Also as an incentive, a $1000 bonus will be given to the hired physiotherapist. "

http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/rehab/cstudents/jobpostings.html#pt


and

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Jobs1&Template=/JobBank/JobProfileForm.cfm&JobID=45028

Outpatient Physical Therapist: Gainesville-Newberry, Florida
$82,000.00
$5000. Sign-On Bonus

Full Time, salaried position with benefits and excellent productivity-based bonus program. Will consider part time position as well.
Brand New outpatient clinic approximately 12 minutes West of Gainesville, in charming Newberry, FL.
NEVER cuts in hours based on productivity, see clients only one-to-one if you choose, caseload expected to be 10% peds, 90% adults. A great, relaxed place to work with focus on quality.

-All Holidays OFF- PAID
-1 Week Paid Vacation 1st Year
-Continuing Ed Reimbursement
-License, APTA, CPR, etc. Reimbursed
-NO WEEKENDS
-minimalized paperwork
-100% honest, customer-service oriented



Jeffre -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 7:42:00 AM)

Be careful of this: "excellent productivity-based bonus program". The quoted salary may be a optimal salary if incentives are met. I have seen that done before but is not advertised as such.



savela -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 8:00:00 AM)

I am a PT working in Ontario and have worked in serveral clinics until I found my niche. Yes, some clinics will pay higher than others but you may be expected to see alot of patients/hour. They also may be clinics who are frauding the MVA insurance companies.

If you are planning to work in Ontario, talk to other PT's about the clinic and do your research.



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 8:05:00 AM)

Those were just two examples but I have seen similar offers.

Savela,

So you are saying the clinic which are offering 40-45/hour are doing so because they expect you to see a lot of patients and are frauding the MVA insurance companies?



SJBird55 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 8:12:00 AM)

The higher salaries may be dependent on the mix of payers and what is reimbursed/hour on average and then figured into the overhead cost of doing business. Obviously, the more patients seen, especially with overlapping patients when scheduling and billing one-on-one procedural codes when technically the one-on-one service is not provided also increases revenue (that is a fraudulent situation).



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 8:59:00 AM)

So you are saying that the only way a private clinic can afford to pay a staff PT $45/hour is to overlap patients and bill for one-on-one procedural codes which is fradulent. Thats a little discouraging.

I am not working yet but I have seen numerous job postings for PTs offering $40-45/hour or up to 80-90 thousand(atprivate clinics) and heard this information from PT graduates who are working in the private sector. So it seemed like these salaries were the norm not the exceptions.



savela -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 9:19:00 AM)

ONstudent,

Please do not get me wrong. I work for myself now, as a contract worker and I make an excellent wage. I see 2 pts per hour and the pts pay upfront. I do not deal with insurance companies.

In Toronto the going rate is higher, and most clinics are on the up and up. Just be aware of the College guidelines if you plan to work in Canada.

They do randomly assess here....and measures will be taken if you are not practicing or billing properly. You as a PT (even if you are an employee) are responsible for overseeing everything.

I once thought I found my "dream job". Great pay, clinic owned by a famous Canadian athelete, professional AT and high profile doctors. Turns out they were using my billing number for patients I never treated. My best advice is to ask alot of questions before you take your first job. Good luck!



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 9:52:00 AM)

Savela,

Thanks for the encouraging words I am from Ontario as well. I have always been interested in contract work seems like a good deal. Do you contract out of another PTs private clinic or do home visits?



KIDPT23 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 10:43:00 AM)

Position in IL. working for a medical facility that has MRI, Chiro, and P.T. The P.T. position was offering $100,000 a year. The stipulation was to sign a 3 year contract.



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 10:59:00 AM)

So is it reasonable to assume that a PT can make 80-90 thousand in the private secotor and if working multiple jobs at $40-45/hour working 50 hours a week isnt it reasonable to assume that a PT working in the private sector can make 90-100 thousand.

After reading through some of these threads in these forums regarding salaries it seems like some have negative attitudes toward PTs incomes but from what I have seen searching through job postings in newspapers/internet/PT school bulletin boards it seems like the private sector salaries are pretty good.

Althought I did find that if I searched for average incomes for PTs I would find lower numbers closer to 60 000 which seems like an average for hospital salaries which I understand are between 50-75 thousand. So is the average being pulled down by the lower hospital salaries? and due to the fact that the PT profession is a female dominated profession and females may have the tendency to work less hours because they want to spend more time with children and family?



savela -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 12:31:00 PM)

ONstudent,

To answer your question I work out of a health club. Working contract is great, but I get paid per patient. It is not as secure as a salary, but it has it's benefits.

I think the only city where you can work in Ontario and make $45/hour is Toronto,but I may be wrong?

I have worked in 2 other cities and the pay was much lower. New grads get paid less, take post grad courses, that will increase your pay.



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 1:21:00 PM)

I have seen postings at $45/hour in the greater GTA like Hamilton, Burlington, Brantford, Oakville, mississauga and I have seen postings for residential care facilities at 90000+ but I dont know if this is the norm or just a very small exception...I have heard the pay is much lower in the maritimes and quebec.



Bournephysio -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 1:38:00 PM)

Is an hourly rate the norm in Ontario? In my experience, B.C. and Alberta jobs are almost all based on a percentage.

Be carefull before moving to the states. I would make sure that whatever state you move to has real direct access. I believe that most states won't allow you to use acupuncture and some won't allow you to manipulate. I worked in Michigan for a year and totally hated it.

Doug



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 1:43:00 PM)

No i dont think hourly rate is the norm in Ontario but it is an option. Yes I have heard that there are some issues concerning direct access in the states things seem to be better on that front here in Canada.



savela -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 6:06:00 PM)

ONstudent,

Yes, you can make alot of money in the GTA working in nursing homes. If your passion is working with the elderly population, and really want to spend time with them, you will not make 90,000.

In the GTA the companies who contract PT's out, pay per patient. I do not know if you have had your nursing home rotation or not? but basically how it works, is the PT supervises the assistants with very little hands on work. The more people they can chart they "mobilize" the more money they make. I am not saying this is how it works everywhere, but this is what I have witnessed.

I think you can make a decent living as a PT, but we do this job because we love it and want to help people. If you are good at what you do, and make the right choices for you, you will be successfull.



ONstudentPT555 -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 22, 2006 6:59:00 PM)

Yes I totally agree that most people, myslef included, choose PT as a profession because they genuinely love it and want to help people get better. With that being said I do think as a profession it is important that we demand at least the same renumeration as other health care professions with the same amount of education and expertise because I think this will get us more respect and help progress our profession. We need be confident and voice that our skills are valuable and worth every penny.



Sebastian Asselbergs -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 23, 2006 1:46:00 AM)

Laudable intent, but at this time the only "demanding" we can do, is by going completely outside any insurance rates, charge what you think you should, and take the plunge. Think you should make $100.00 to $150.00 an hour (not unreasonable)? Then charge that much for your time. Simple.
You have the right to charge what you want, and if you are good enough - I.O.W get your patients better faster than others - you will do well.
However, IF you want to start in an existing clinic, you take all the previous posters' advice carefully, since many places that pay hourly wages, have high patient-number requirements. Check the percentage rates per patient of any candidate clinic.

IF you want to be truely independent, start your own clinic and live with a variable income, that in the beginning will NOT be very high. After a couple of years, IF you do well with your patients (in ALL aspects of PT practice), you can vary from 56,000 to 95,000 depending on hours worked, location, own/lease issues etc etc.

Remuneration is an issue affected by many variables: not in the least the public perception that paying out of pocket for any health care is generally not acceptable/desirable/"right".
It takes years to develop a reputation that attracts more patients who are willing to pay out of pocket.

Lastly, "our skills are valuable and worth every penny" is an issue that needs a bit of further reflection. On what do you base that comment? Is there a good body of evidence that as PTs we are the "best" choice of health care providers to address the patients' needs? Is there anyway that the public and referral sources and payors can be convinced that this is so? Is there proof of this?
Our value has to be proven to be marketed and remunerated. And the practice of PTs is not exactly heavily founded on this type of evidence...Too many perform modality-type (poorly substantiated) therapy, book too many sessions for patients, and educate the patients too little.


rant is over...Good luck and keep the faith! LOL



Jeep -> Re: Will PT salaries increase? (August 23, 2006 6:19:00 AM)

As a student, IMO- it would best serve you to concentrate on learning-------anatomy, physiology, etc. Just because you may have a certain degree- "ENTITLES" you to nothing.



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