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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's?
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 6:58:00 AM
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SJBird55
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Someone posted a response from Paris over at [URL=http://www.PTManager.com]www.PTManager.com[/URL] for any of you interested in his response to concern.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 7:09:00 AM
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SJBird55
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Diane, I don't know, but if a professional was both a PT and a DC and licensed in both and could legally practice as both... well, that professional would wear both hats. Depending on how one practices, there may be value to both sets of qualifications and the patient's needs would determine what was provided.
Theoretically, there may be some difficulty with a clashing of some chiropractic perspectives/beliefs with physical therapy beliefs. Billing might get quite tricky... I'm not sure how it would be perceived to have chiropractic codes being submitted on the same day as rehab codes? I don't know if there are mutually exclusive rehab codes with chiropractic codes? Do chiropractic codes have to meet the 8-23 minute rule? I'm also not quite sure how some of the regulatory stuff would be met - currently with Medicare, physical therapy plans of care are required to be signed by an MD or a DO or a PA or a NP... chiropractors are not considered eligible to be responsible for a plan of care, so if a chiropractor did become a PT, well, there would need to be a mandated change in the policy and procedures in the office IF the chiropractor who additionally became a PT wanted to call services physical therapy. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I believe if a chiropractor did become a PT, LOL, well, welcome to the documentation world and the world of ever changing Medicare regulations and HELLO to that Medicare cap (IF not functioning in a hospital setting)!
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 9:32:00 AM
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stan1980
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This is just an opinion from an american PT practicing abroad. A good idea would be to address your concerns and specific questions directly to Dr.Paris. I dont have a personal opinion on the subject but it ALL sounds very awkward! The APTA should take place and for this to happen, the importance of the issue needs to be emphasized if it hasnt been already. The APTA is the only way for PT's to defend themselves against possible 'malicious intentions'.So let them know what you're thinking.
The problem is, and this is another discussion, in the U.S we are going down a very dangerous road with DPT's and the supermarket concept of online degrees and the plethora of such programs! PT'S are doing great (high salaries, respect) in Canada, Australia, Britain without as many DPT's or entry level DPT's or as many online degrees soon to become the norm!Why not keep it simple?
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 10:40:00 AM
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nari
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Stan
Couldn't agree more. The entire system in the USA is unbelievably complex, and I still can't work it out. (Maybe that is just me).
We are moving towards one degree (outside of physiotherapy) plus two years for a Masters in Physiotherapy. No titles, no angst. The medicos are doing similar programs. Livens up the synapses,I think...should encourage more lateral thinking. Only a guess at this stage, time will tell.
Nari
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 11:43:00 AM
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ouch
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I don't find it that difficult. If a patient is referred to me for physical therapy,then I see them as a physical therapist. Some patients call the office for chiropractic care. Other times the patients insurance determines which form of treatment they want. Everyday I am both a DC/PT.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 1:03:00 PM
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Diane
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[QUOTE]If a patient is referred to me for physical therapy,then I see them as a physical therapist. Some patients call the office for chiropractic care. Other times the patients insurance determines which form of treatment they want. Everyday I am both a DC/PT.[/QUOTE]OK. I think I see the big picture..
Referred patients get PT billings. Walk-ins get chiro billings. I got it. Doesn't exactly help the profession of PT get autonomy in the US, but I can see how it's an advantage for individual practitioners to have two hats in a situation where/if one designation doesn't have autonomy and the other does. Nari, I wouldn't call the US situation "unbelievably complex", I'd call it ridiculously convoluted.
[QUOTE]The problem is, and this is another discussion, in the U.S we are going down a very dangerous road with DPT's and the supermarket concept of online degrees and the plethora of such programs! PT'S are doing great (high salaries, respect) in Canada, Australia, Britain without as many DPT's or entry level DPT's or as many online degrees soon to become the norm!Why not keep it simple?[/QUOTE]Ditto that Stan. Double ditto that.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 2:19:00 PM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Stan-
Your opinion of degree completion via t-DPT as a supermarket is quite silly, and not reflective of 21st century education. It's not about "high salaries, respect" -- it's about delivering quality patient care, autonomy of practice, and full access to patients and reimbursement.
Entry level graduates are going to standard brick-and-mortar places to earn their DPTs.
We can't keep it "simple" as you say, because it has evidently become necessary to move to a clinical doctorate in order to have a truly independent profession, and be free from the designs of others. As I've said before, don't hate the APTA for doing it, hate a SYSTEM that would seem to require it to acheive basic autonomy and access to patients. Or, as the popular culture goes, don't hate the player, hate the game...
We are simply adapting to the situation here in the US. I know it's different elsewhere, but over HERE, we need to take a slightly different road...
J
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Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 4:42:00 PM
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paulpt
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Greg: I can clearly and cleanly see your point. I thought so, but felt it a good idea that you spell it out in case anyone else might see you incorrectly.
And hopefully you might see how such terminology is bait for certain types people...
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 4:51:00 PM
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Dr.Wagner
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From a Physician's point of view, I really find Dr. Paris's idea odd. Is this a shortened course??
When overseas schools began allowing DC's to take online courses to become MD's, the ACGME,AMA, Federation of State Medical Boards, all put the Kabosh on that. It seems like MONEY is the only motivating factor.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 4:56:00 PM
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drbuddy
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FYI - There are only two code sets that I can think of that are either PT or DC. The physical therapy eval codes and the chiropractic manipulative therapy codes. Other than that, codes are codes. The physical medicine codes are not PT codes. I see this misunderstanding often.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 5, 2006 8:46:00 PM
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GLASGOW
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Some foreign schools still allow DC's to take short conversion courses to MD.It is more common to see DC/MD than DC/PT qualifications.I have a feeling that DC's look at this DC/DPT as training downwards that is why this Paris idea is possibly a non starter.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 3:41:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
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Glasgow, the "conversion" courses are NOT ALLOWED in the United States of America.
Those graduates are not allowed to recieve Licensure in the United States...they can't even sit for the tests.
Maybe in Mexico, South America etc. But not the the US (I would doubt Europe as well).
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 4:31:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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I am not sure this is strictly true.Not long ago chiros were doing a 12 month conversion course to MD in Russia, of all places and getting US verification.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 7:21:00 AM
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ouch
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Diane, its not that all walk-in patients get chiropractic care and all referred patients get physical therapy. It goes the other way too. Unfortunately,the patient's insurance plan requires a physician's referral for physical therapy,and in some cases chiropractic. Sure,the patient could choose to pay cash.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 7:35:00 AM
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stan1980
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Jason,
I understand that the APTA is not alone in the U.S. and that as a profession, physical therapy has to adapt to the whole situation. And i do believe that the DPT concept in the U.S. might just be the right path. Still, that doesnt make an easy one and i am sure you agree on that.
Online education isn't that well established. Especially on physical therapy, a hands on profession. It is promising but not established. But it is a necessity in the States, that is why, i believe, many of us support the online curriculum. Most universities abroad, especially in the U.K. are clearly opposed or hesitant towards online modules-courses, eventhough they have the ability to start one.And we're not talking about physiotherapy. An example of a subject could be disability studies or healthcare management and thats about it.
Perhaps the term 'supermarket' was quite harsh and i apologize if i offended someone. But i will give another strong term just to elicit further discussions: 'compulsory postgraduate degree', given that it appears that all of us will eventually have to obtain the DPT credential. Isn't that an oxymoron? Again, it is an adaptation to the system, but, hey, we can just take a step back and perceive how strange this is.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 8:15:00 AM
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Jeffre
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Stan,
I don't see the DPT becoming compulsory. When PT schools transitioned into masters programs I don't remember BS degreed therapists rushing to get their masters. The APTA stance on how to write your credentials shows that they are more concerned about being recognized as a Physical Therapist and not BS,MPT or being called Dr. In regards to online courses, you get what you put into them. I am working on my DPT through St. Augustine and have taken 5 online courses. These courses are quite interactive and have promoted good discussion between fellow students and professors.There are some who believe that because you are not in a classroom that it is not the same. My question to them is how many times have you seen students tune out in class only to study their pre-made notes and ace the class? At USA a fair amount of courses are in conjuction with a seminar where you do learn manual techniques.The classwork after that expands on that work.
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"You are as well as your insurance company is willing to allow."
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 10:17:00 AM
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stan1980
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'In regards to online courses, you get what you put into them...'
You can say that again!
But that stands for courses in general, online or on site doesnt it.
The combined on site- online format USA uses is probably the best for the U.S. But i just wonder if the quality of education offered at USA is the norm (for online t DPT degrees).Just thinking aloud.
Since in the States online degrees are already widespread, universities should focus on improvements on this online format. Still , in the rest of the world there is still much thought around whether online can replace in part on site learning. Maybe we're not open minded, i dont know...
You're probably right about the DPT not becoming compulsory. I just had this impression, and since i dont practice abroad i cant and wont insist.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 10:27:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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Yes but how will the medic/DC/pods etc view a online DPT grad.Will the DPT grad be taken seriously.Certainly not.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 11:12:00 AM
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stan1980
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I hope that that stands for conservative minded MD/DC's . But maybe they ll never find out :)
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - February 6, 2006 11:26:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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Probably won't and care less.
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