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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's?
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 7:20:00 AM
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drbuddy
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From: Pennsylvania
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Diane,
Other than your snide remarks and obvious bias against chiros, what logical argument can you present against this DC to DPT program?
All,
I'm wondering how the state boards and insurance companies will deal with the dual degree practioners. How do they deal with it now? In states where an MD referral is needed after 30 days of care, could you just kick in the DC half and not worry about getting a referral? When billing medicare, can you bill the CMT under your DC degree and rehab under the PT degree? For evals/exams, would a DC DPT use the physician codes like a DC or the PT eval codes like a PT?
Unless a DC is really struggling or there is a strong desire to have dual degrees (for teaching, working in hospitals, research, issues of limited scope in some states), I dont see a huge demand for this program. The established chiro would not have much to gain.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 7:34:00 AM
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Jeffre
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From: Lafayette, LA
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As a current USA t-DPT student I'm not sure what to think about this. The hush-hush aspect is weird but does he really need our opinion on this? If this would help either profession is anybody's guess. I wonder how the differing state boards will react to this. In LA you cannot switch your PT license on and off. So would that mean that a PT/DC would not be able to evaluate without referral? Legally, can you be a PT for 5 min and then a DC for another 5 min? Can you evaluate a s/p CVA pt off the street under your DC license and then treat under your PT license? It may be that in certain states this could hold a DC back as far as autonomy goes.
_____________________________
"You are as well as your insurance company is willing to allow."
- Dr. Hibbert
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 7:36:00 AM
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Jeffre
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From: Lafayette, LA
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Buddy,
I agree, our posts crossed. Too many questions right now.
_____________________________
"You are as well as your insurance company is willing to allow."
- Dr. Hibbert
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 7:41:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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Sorry you feel that way Diane but that is just a fact of life.No matter how you view yourself as a physiotherapist to bring on board a bunch of long established doctors would seem to be a very big fanciful wish for Paris.Thats just about the bottom line.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 10:18:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Buddy, [QUOTE]Other than your snide remarks and obvious bias against chiros, what logical argument can you present against this DC to DPT program? [/QUOTE](I hardly think I have much of a claim on snide-ness..) Logical argument? Well... let me see.. how about potential dismemberment of the PT profession? Glasgow, thanks for your pity, but I don't need it. Guess we will all just have to wait to see what on earth Paris could have been thinking.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 10:35:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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Quote
how about potential dismemberment of the PT profession?
That may be a little bit hysterical.
I can't help feeling that other than the profession itself,nobody much cares about what happens to the profession.As for the chiropractors I suspect they are too busy making money to worry about what physiotherapy is doing and care even less.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 11:11:00 AM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Whatever. It's not my issue as I live in a country where PT is both intact and autonomous. However, I remain not pleased with the idea of PT anywhere becoming dependent on adopting strange bedfellows as part of any particular individual's strategy for evolution of the profession of which we are both (Paris, myself) presumably part.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 2:42:00 PM
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drbuddy
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This has nothing to do with PT becoming dependant on anyone else.
It's a program that is offering advanced standing for students that have already taken equivalent coursework.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 2:51:00 PM
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Diane
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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I'll wait to be reassured, receive clarification from some PTs who know what's going on and why, buddy. Thanks anyway.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 3:46:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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Perhaps I mis-spoke when I used the term "t-DPT" to describe the program. It is an entry-level program, unique in delivery, that offers advanced standing to DC's. We shouldn't have any problem with that. If a DC wants to become a DPT also, so be it.
The question is, do we WANT DC/DPT's among us? Think about it. With hot-button issues of physical therapists performing grade V manipulations, and with the questions of direct reimbursement, and clinical doctoring practice on the table --- do we REALLY want to create a class of DPT's who will be the legal "go to" experts for resolution of these issues? Do we want to make obtaining a DPT in 12 trimesters of weekend and online work? Do we want to create a class of DPT's whose first love is likely to chiropractic (with several years of experience under their belt), with DPT as a "certification" or "supordinate paraprofessional" afterthought, an internal political rival to the mostly novice and inexperienced entry-level DPT ranks? Can a handful (roughly 2000 or so) clinically experienced t-DPT's steward the profession away from what could end up being a very powerful group of DC/DPT's whose make it their mission to LIMIT the practice scope of the rest of us? Serious questions that deserve serious answers. Dr. Paris may owe the profession a few answers, but by the same token, we owe him the respect of simply asking, “Hey guy, what’s up?” and not taking to panic. I just think, and it’s clear that I have support for the notion, that as we struggle to re-define physical therapy as a clinical doctoring, autonomous, interdependent profession; we must be mindful of these arrangements --- and not allow a lone wolf to define our future without more transparent discussion with the DPT's of 2020 whom it will most impact.
I've met Dr. Paris several times, and I don't mean to imply that financial gain is the sole motivation behind exploring the value of a program of this type. I’m sure that there are many theoretical benefits of a program of this nature, and most importantly, a list of rationale as to why, in the infancy of the DPT, a DC to DPT program is a good idea. I just can't think of one. With so many disaster scenarios possible, and as a DPT/PhD who fully expects to practice well into 2020, I just think that some answers are in order. What is the vision as to how such a program could benefit the profession at large?
I’m asking, of course, primarily of Dr. Paris and his staff, but if anyone has an supportive ideas as to how this COULD be a good idea . . . I’m all ears.
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 5:52:00 PM
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dosrinc
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From: Bonita Springs
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Relax, all of you
This is not a tdpt program this is a dpt program, under the same CAPTE regulations as any other DPT program, any chiro who wanted to attend would have to first meet entry requirements just like any of you who entered PT school and then pass all of the required classes and complete clinical internships. This is no different than an ATC or any other professional switching professions and deciding to be a PT. The fact is that CAPTE must accredit the program and then the state board that any chiro applies to to recieve a PT liscense must also approve of all of the transfer of credits AND the chiro must pass the PT boards. I think the interesting aspect of this will be having DC's as PT students with no more rights and all the same responsibilities as any other PT student. By the way, many chiros have switched professions and become PTs and vis/versa, I think several actually post here. I fail to see what Drew got so worked up about....
Rick
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 6:00:00 PM
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dosrinc
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just to add, after re-reading some of the posts above, Dr. Paris does not and can not award PT liscenses, anyone wanting a PT liscense must meet the requirements of their state's liscensing board. If Dr. Paris is marketing his DPT program to DC's I see it as a smart move by a shrewd individual who is trying to meet a demand with a supply, he is not, nor does he have any power to, grant a liscense to someone who does not meet state requirements. All states require that anyone wanting to call themselves a PT graduate from an accredited PT program and pass the board, that would be no different for any chiro, or anyone else, that decided to attend Dr. Paris' program....
Rick
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 29, 2006 9:00:00 PM
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GLASGOW
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I think that to attract DC's the DPT might need to expand its depth of knowledge and eventual scope of practice.This would certainly be vigorously resisted by MD/DC/DO groups.So for DC's it may seem there is little advantage to the course in its present form.
I feel the DPT still has a long road ahead of it.It will will need to change legislation to obtain a larger scope of practice. This will be fought by DC's and MD's and DO's will fight it as well.
After viewing DPT College curriculum it looks rather weak in full body diagnosis and even weaker with regard to x-ray diagnosis. If they continue with the same curriculum I don't see it being very hard to shoot down any attempts made to expand scope.That is a real danger for the profession,not the offer to include DC's,which I think will be a non starter to begin with.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 2:02:00 AM
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paulpt
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Interesting news on a Monday morning, shortly after learning of the passing of Florence Kendall.
This sounds like another marketing scheme from the USA.edu (Note, my DPT is through USA).
He cannot grant a license to practice to any of the DCs... but it sounds like an untapped corner of the market. With t-DPTs popping up all over the country and a glutted CEU market, the biz inside him just could not hold back.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 3:14:00 AM
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KIDPT23
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Must be da money!
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 3:51:00 AM
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Jeffre
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From: Lafayette, LA
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Again, too many questions without answers. For instance, I assume that a DC who completes their DPT will have to take their state boards in order to call themselves a PT. If they don't can they market themselves as providing Physical Therapy? What about self-referral from DC eval to PT treatment? Of what value is a DPT to a DC if they can't call themselves a Physical Therapist? What is sad is that each state will probably have different interpretations of what a PT/DC can and can't do adding to the confusion.
_____________________________
"You are as well as your insurance company is willing to allow."
- Dr. Hibbert
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 4:29:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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Well, I don't see the big deal.
Let them come and go through school like any other professional who wants a PT degree - ATCs, PAs, PTAs, etc.
I think this has the potential to attract the best (read: rational and non-subluxation based) of the DC profession, and there clearly is a market among chiropractors for this program, o/w Dr Paris would not be offering it.
I think questions about scope are particulary a non-issue. Certainly the PT/ATC people aren't having a big problem with this.
Glasgow's point about Xray diagnosis is quite silly. Xray diagnosis is really for a radiologist (very few medical physicians other than surgeons would attempt this), but I guess if someone's learning to spot subluxations, then that's another issue entirely.
Actually, scope of practice isn't the issue with PTs. It's access to patients.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 9:48:00 AM
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GLASGOW
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Glasgow's point about Xray diagnosis is quite silly. Xray diagnosis is really for a radiologist (very few medical physicians other than surgeons would attempt this), but
I would have thought that the ability to know what you are looking at on your X-ray might be fundamental to being any kind of doctor DPT or otherwise.Maybe I am old fashioned.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 10:06:00 AM
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drbuddy
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If you take your own xrays, you should be able to read it and r/o pathology. I know I was taught to read films and make a diagosis. In many cases you cant always say for sure if it is one tumor vs another, but we were taught to recognize problems that required follow up.
There was a study done that showed vanilla DCs did much better than family docs and chiro students did much better than med students at plain film radiograph interpretation. Med and chiro radiologists were pretty even.
I dont take any myself these days, and my skills are rusty, so I do rely on the radiologist.
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Re: Paris to offer t-DPT to DC's? - January 30, 2006 10:13:00 AM
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paulpt
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KIDPT23 agreed it must be the money
I, for one, do not work for free. How about you?
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