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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 2:41:00 AM
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Jeep
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Jon-
I am not advocating "banning" SRAM from indexing- that implies, that at some point, it was accepted, which is not the case.
Although I, as you, are not involved with the decision making as to acceptence for indexing, but, in reading the SCRAM site, and the information contained therein, I observe some glaring irregularities from indexed journals. The most obvious being: There are only two names attached to the publication- editor and executive director. What meritous journal only has two names? Compare that to eg. JOSPT- They list probably 50 or more amongst editor in chief, associate editors, board of directors, and editorial review board. This is the norm for meritous journals.
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"critical thinkers need not apply for indexing".
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Do you think SCRAM is reflective of "critical thinking"?
I think Jason succinctley capsulized it--approach vs. position. The indexed journals begin with a query(approach). They then attempt to answer the query(literature review, RCT etc.) and then report the results. SCRAM, alternatively, begins with a position, then selectively reviews only that literature that supports their position. For example: Let's compare the Kava article in SCRAM http://www.sram.org/0802/kava.html to a very comparable article in *Journal of Internal Medicine*(indexed on pubmed). http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2004.21108.x
The editorial language of SCRAM alone should alert you to the "position" mission of SCRAM.
What indexed journal interjects such editorial bias as: "when there was also a financial interest in making a sale", "waste of money", "The level of misinformation...."
The juxtoposition of these two articles, in addition to the flags previously noted, IMO, is, evidence as to why SCRAM is niether an example of "critical thinking", or a meritous candidate for pubmed indexing. Kudos for those on the "indexing" commitee for recognising such a glaringly political writing/blog, that wants to disquise itself a a "journal" meritous of indexing.
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 5:05:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
Joined: March 28, 2003
From: USA
Status: offline
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Jon-
I am not advocating "banning" SRAM from indexing- that implies, that at some point, it was accepted, which is not the case.
Although I, as you, are not involved with the decision making as to acceptence for indexing, but, in reading the site, and the information contained therein, I observe some glaring irregularities from indexed journals. The most obvious being: There are only two names attached to the publication- editor and executive director. What meritous journal only has two names? Compare that to eg. JOSPT- They list probably 50 or more amongst editor in chief, associate editors, board of directors, and editorial review board. This is the norm for meritous journals.
-------------------------------------------
"critical thinkers need not apply for indexing".
---------------------------------------------
Do you think SCRAM is reflective of "critical thinking"?
I think Jason succinctley capsulized it--approach vs. position. The indexed journals begin with a query(approach). Then attempt to answer the query(literature review, RCT etc.) and report the results. SCRAM begins with a *position*, then selectively reviews the literature that supports that position. For example: Let's compare the Kava article in SCRAM http://www.sram.org/0802/kava.html to a very comparable article in Journal of Internal Medicine. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2004.21108.x
The editorial language of SCRAM alone should alert you to the "position" mission of SCRAM......
What indexed journal interjects such editorial bias/language as: "when there was also a financial interest in making a sale", "waste of money", "The level of misinformation...."?
The juxtoposition of these two articles, IMO, is,.... in addition to the flags previously noted, evidence as to why SCRAM is niether an example of "critical thinking", or a meritous candidate for pubmed indexing.
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 6:53:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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[URL=http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/sram.html]Who contributes to the journal?[/URL]
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 7:00:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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Why is the list of "contributors" not published on the home page of the "journal"? Why is this lsit of "contributors not on the home page? Why is it only revealed serendipitously on a Quackwatch page? Does this not, in anyway, make you in the least bit suspicious of this "journal"? What other "indexed journals" have this type of ambiguity? Do you consider this type of ambiguity normal for meritous journals? Do you think JOSPT should require a mysteriously circuitous search to a privately held website to find out who "contributes to their journal? Do you think other indexed journals intentianlly withold this information from their readily accessible site "about us" options? Does ANY of this appear out of the norm for "indexed journals" to you?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 7:23:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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From: Amherst, WI
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The list of contributors is also found on the back cover of the journal itself. It would seem these folks are running a shoe string budget and it comes out in some of the surface aspects of their presentation. There are typos in the journal etc. Apparently there is not a lot of money in debunking or they'd have the funding to make their publication a bit more glossy and thus deserving of merit.
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 8:12:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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>>The list of contributors is also found on the back cover of the journal itself.<<
"also"?? "Also"implies "in addition to". I did not see ANYTHING on the SCRAM site. Did I miss it? Where? Why would one need to reference/enter Quackwatch to to obtain the information about SCRAM "contributors"? Even so, your link listed NO Board of Directors, or Editorial Review Board, as is the norm with indexed journals. IMO- They are taking extraordinary liberty with the description of "peer-reviewed" We have no idea, who "peer-reviewed" the published articles.
The only way to view a Back cover is to subscribe to a "Paper" copy. Why would anyone want to subscribe/risk their $$ on a paper copy of such an ambiguously edited, mysteriously reviewed "journal"? All the indexed journals publish this info on the E pages. If they do indeed have a "shoe-string budget", then pubishing this long list of "contributing editors" would only increase subscriptions!! Put this *illustrious list* out there for promotion of the journal subcriptions!! Publishing this list and making it readily availble, costs nothing/zero/zilch!! Budget is not a valid excuse/answer. Can you think of any "budget/money related" reasons why this information is not prominently accessible on the "Journal's" home page?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 8:44:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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I made a mistake. The list is posted on the page opposite the table of contents (not the back cover) in addition to the website I posted.
I suppose you could email them and ask them the information you seek, no need to buy a copy.
[URL=http://www.sram.org/contact.html]Here's the link[/URL]
I'm still uncertain as to why you feel they shouldn't be indexed. My current understanding is that they haven't posted a board of directors, have a bad web site and have a focus on scientific reviews versus new research. Am I missing any other of your main concerns?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 10:01:00 AM
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Jeep
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I am not in the postition of making the decision of whether or not Scram is indexed. However I see glaring irregularities between it and the other journals that ARE indexed. I also see little/next to nothing on the SCRAM site that evidences "critical thinking". To me, it looks like a position paper/forum that is trying to disquise as a "peer-reviewed Journal". I have given you several flags and irregularities to support my very skeptical opinion of this "journal".
You never did comment on my paralell kava papers.
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 10:25:00 AM
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Jon Newman
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Hi Jeep,
I'm not ignoring the kava papers, I just haven't time to read them in order to comment on them.
Do you suppose that the journal Zhongguo Zhen Jiu, which is indexed on Pubmed, has the qualities that you desire?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 10:36:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Jon-
My "desires" are NOT the discussion here.
Should we discuss your "desires"?
PS-
I "desired" the Packers to at least be in the play-offs. Now the best that can be hoped for is a good draft. How about you?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 11:41:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
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From: Amherst, WI
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I'll rephrase. Does that journal possess the qualities you feel are meritious and SRAM lacks?
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 12:00:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Jon-
I'll let you read and discuss the two Kava articles first. After that..........
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 9, 2005 3:01:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
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From: Amherst, WI
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Hi Jeep,
I've now had time to read the full text of both articles. A comparison of the articles is difficult because the questions being asked were not the same. Here are my thoughts.
I learned more about the specific types of recommendations being made by retailers of the product. The SRAM article was also nice because it included pharmacists and not just health food retailers and the comparison of responses was interesting. Not knowing anything about kava, the SRAM article was more educational. In fairness, the JGIM article wasn't considering what claims were being made regarding kava's specific effects as much as whether the retailers were adhering to the warnings regarding its potential harm.
I have no problems with the JGIM article and note that the lead author (as well as most of the co-authors including the DC) was referenced in the SRAM article although for a different journal article they authored.
Regarding language: I don't see any problems with the language used in SRAM. It is not inaccurate or inflammatory. Both studies came to essentially the same conclusions regarding the fact that people are receiving misinformation and may suffer adverse health consequences because of it.
In your original 'kava' post (posted December 09, 2005 11:05 AM) you contend that
[QUOTE] The indexed journals begin with a query(approach). Then attempt to answer the query(literature review, RCT etc.) and report the results. SCRAM begins with a *position*, then selectively reviews the literature that supports that position. [/QUOTE]The full text reveals that your contention is wrong. Well so does the abstract but its hard to make hard conclusions on abstracts alone. Regardless it wouldn't help your case that they both came to similar conclusions about the use of kava.
On the other hand, it would appear as though the journal Zhongguo Zhen Jiu is at least at risk for the impropriety you mention and yet it is indexed.
And then there are citations such as this
[URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10729969&query_hl=9]link[/URL]
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 11, 2005 1:22:00 AM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Jon-
I am not ignoring our ongoing exchange here, but have a week-end seminar(which I must leave for, again, shortly).
I do not have the full SCRAM article(just the abstract). Can you post the full article? I have read the other in it's entireity(sp?).
AND- the fact that both papers came to the same conclusion, is exactly *WHY* I thought it an excellent candidate for "side-by-side" analysis.
Looking forward to exploring this further in the next few days. Just wanted to let you know my current inability for not doing so.
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 11, 2005 2:39:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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I can ask the editors. I'm not sure of copyright laws but common sense tells me that I cannot do that. Besides I'm not sure why its my job to help you out here. You're the one making accusations.
I'll see what I can do but otherwise I'll be patient to allow you to obtain the full text if you are so motivated.
It is interesting to note that you feel free to make claims that SRAM has a bias misrepresentation of facts before you even read the article you are making such a claim about. Your complaint about language lacks credibility when you constantly refer to the journal as SCRAM which carries a negative connotation to some or perhaps it is just wishful thinking about the journal's existence.
Since the abstract was apparently offensive to you but not inaccurate, how would paraphrase it to make it more charming yet retain the message?
For those with an interest here is the [URL=http://www.sram.org/0802/editorial.html]editorial[/URL].
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Re: Laser Therapy - A John Barnes Link? - December 12, 2005 2:45:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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More interesting reading
[URL=http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/183_11_051205/sam10986_fm.html]Propogation of the Absurd[/URL]
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