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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 3:47:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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No Chris I don't think you're missing anything. It is difficult to be objective when one is lumped in willy-nilly with barbers, in addition to the unnecessary undertone of malice directed at one's craft.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:15:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Greg, in jumping to your conclusion that it was "I" who lumped you in with the barbers (oh sensitive one), au contraire; you must have missed this from my first post:
[QUOTE]Ram, the author, acquired a vertebral artery dissection 4 years ago. His petition is to stop neck manipulation being done by chiros, barbers and osteopaths. I wish he would add PTs and MDs, but it's too late now..[/QUOTE]See? I'm fair all round. It's not my petition, I'm just helping out. I actually emailed him about it, but he wanted to stick with his original plan, because he thinks PT and MDs are safer. Sounds like from what Nari said, in Aus PTs and MDs actually do warn people about associated risks, so if so that might be why he didn't see fit to include us in his petition. Please feel free to resume objectivity now. Please feel free to separate yourself from your ..er..craft, also.
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:24:00 PM
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Enforcer
Posts: 19
Joined: August 3, 2005
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Greg,
I guess since Diane is fair all around and no chirobasher we shouldn't be so sensitive. We should be more like Diane, the queen of one liners, and just ignore anything that applies to us, the way she ignored Bogduk's saying the craft she practices is nearly entirely useless, while he says only a small part of our practice is useless.
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:30:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
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Diane I understand that it wasn't you that lumped me in with the barbers. My comments were not intended to zero in on you personally, but rather at the authors of the petition, or better yet at the spirit of the petition itself. And I don't mind calling what I do a craft, a trade, whatever.
I don't want this to turn into an unnecessary, useless battle.
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:37:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Hi, me again, just popping by to put the petition in question on page two of the thread so it's easier to see how signatures are climbing.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mindneck/petition.html
Please resume, thanks.
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:39:00 PM
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Jeep
Posts: 353
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From: USA
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Is their anyone here that is under the mistaken impression that DCs do not use informed consent forms that patients read and sign? It is a mandated procedure by every state. The petition is not only misleading, it is a blatent bogus waste of bandwith.
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 4:53:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
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Hi Jeep,
I had no idea that patients sign an informed consent but it makes sense to me. Would you (or any chiro) be able to post some of the language of a typical informed consent? Do PT's need to have patients sign an informed consent specific to manipulation?
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 5:19:00 PM
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flexion
Posts: 151
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Its also mandated by law in Canada.
"Prior to starting treatment, all health professionals are required by law to obtain informed consent to treatment from their patients. Health consumers must receive adequate and accurate information to assist them in evaluating their health care choices, and in balancing the relative risks of treatment options with the benefits. The chiropractic profession takes this responsibility seriously and has been a leader in obtaining informed consent."
Our association gives us the consent it covers things like ribs Fx, strokes, disc injuries, sprain/strains. Its about one page of crap that I review with them and they sign it. So everyone of my patients knows they can have a stroke if I crack their neck. Its their choice.
Thats why the petition is essentially useless and begs serious questions as to the motive. Wager put it appropriately... who is this going to God? Because consent is already mandated by law?
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 21, 2005 6:42:00 PM
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ginger
Posts: 647
Joined: February 26, 2005
From: Melbourne Victoria
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Dianne, you deserve great credit for taking a stand on this issue, as well as putting us all in the position, by your example, of examining the protocol and motives that guide us. Those who use manipulative techniques as the central theme of spinal treatments will be aware that this method falls short of ideal. Or at least they will be, if they are suitably trained and expert in the use of other more effective manual treatments.Manipulative methods have only short term effect at best, This no doubt suits those whose interpretation of the ideal health provider model is to develop dependant relationships with their patients. Were these providers to mete out the more effective long term answers ( eg mobilisation )they would suffer financially by becoming redundant due to their own success. I fancy the real force behind those driven to continue to apply manipulation , in the face of ample evidence of its lesser value , is financial.
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Ubi est mea anaticula cumminosa?
The Grand Pediculator
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 4:23:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
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From: Indianapolis
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Why does anyone respond to this...there are 132 signatures.
Who cares?
Sure cervical manipulation has risks as does any manipulation, but statistically in the hands of DCs and DOs they have proven historically to be an extreme rarity. So much so, I have never seen one...ever. One must remember THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO MANIPULATE.
There are more complications from tylenol nationwide.
Should I start an "online petition"?
132 worldwide signers of a petition is not what I call a "global endorsement".
By the way, how does one validate the gentlemans claim?
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Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 4:30:00 AM
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Diane
Posts: 1491
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: online
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Thanks Ginger.
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 8:03:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1105
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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Diane, I have to thank you for posting this thread and petition here (you never lacked guts!). It gives food for reasonable discussion and thought.
I personally do not think that the incidence of deaths or strokes following HVLA is sufficient to warrant a ban - YES to trying to protect people from barbers without adequate training, without Colleges to protect the public and without informed consent.
I have trouble with issues of responsibility - especially with such paucity of hard data, despite statements by both chiros and neursurgeons on both sides - the responsibility of treatment is under the gun here, making the patient a "victim". If a patient is a real "victim", the law and the colleges are there to pursue the matter. I feel banning the technique would be like using a verrrry fine net to catch one or two fish....Similar to closing a highway to save a few lives...
Just my 2 cts worth.
BTW, folks, do not jump to such quick strong conclusions.....Diane is to my knowledge, anti-fraud and quackery, wherever it is practiced - including PT.
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 8:44:00 AM
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UTDC
Posts: 221
Joined: December 21, 2003
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Jon,
I list the following on my informed consent:
"Soreness/Dizziness: I am aware that like exercise it is common to experience muscle soreness and occasionally bruising in the first few treatments. Temporary symptoms like dizziness and nausea can occur but are relatively rare.
Fractures/Joint/Disc Injury: I further understand that in isolated cases underlying physical defects, deformities or pathologies like weak bones from osteoporosis may render the patient susceptible to injury. Disc injury, including tears, herniations and ruptures, with or without nerve damage, can result from manipulation and manual treatment. When osteoporosis, degenerative disc, or other abnormality is detected, this office will proceed with extra caution.
Stroke: Although strokes happen with some frequency in our world, strokes from chiropractic adjustments are rare. I am aware that nerve or brain damage including stroke is reported to occur once in a million to once in ten million treatments. Once in a million is about the same chance as getting hit by lightning. Once in ten million is about the same chance as a normal dose of aspirin or Tylenol causing death.
Physical Therapy Burns: Some of the therapies used in this office generate heat and may rarely cause a burn. Despite precautions, if a burn is obtained, there will be a temporary increase in pain and possible blistering. This should be reported to the doctor.
Pneumothorax/Infection/Nerve damage: Although extremely rare, acupuncture can result in infection, disease transmission, nerve damage or pneumothorax (collapsed lung). This office and it’s doctors are trained in safely performing this procedure to minimize these risks."
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 9:08:00 AM
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UTDC
Posts: 221
Joined: December 21, 2003
Status: offline
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Sebastian,
Regarding your comment: "Diane is to my knowledge, anti-fraud and quackery, wherever it is practiced - including PT."
While Diane may have good intentions, her lack of knowledge on this particular subject makes her a poor candidate to become a "crusader" against neck manipulation. I have gone round with her, only to find out that 1. She is not familiar with the pathology and 2. She bases her opinion on hearsay.
As has been said already, this group of individuals would be better off creating a petition against lawn darts, trampolines, peanuts, ibuprophen, etc, etc. If their goal really was patient safety, I'm sure 10 seconds of speculation could provide 10 more appropriate targets.
Jeff
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 9:17:00 AM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
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On a lighter note, here is my suggestion for an informed consent form:
[QUOTE]To All Patients:
This might hurt. A lot. You might get a stroke, fractured vertebrae, total paralysis, ruptured discs, measles. If you can't handle the pain go elsewhere. Alternatively, you can try acupuncture, biofeedback, TM, medications, surgery and mountain climbing, I don't care. Your chances of getting well here are indeterminate and I am totally noncommittal, but very sure of it. If you choose to go elsewhere please don't forget to pay for this visit on the way out.[/QUOTE]
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 9:27:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
Posts: 1105
Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
Status: offline
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Jeff, I appreciate your points on more "appropriate" targets, but to be fair - the perception of appropriateness is very much in subjective, and personal experience of the originator of the petition will influence this even more. As will your experience with the technique colour yours....
I am involved in Rotary and sometimes we help someone get a set of false teeth, sometimes we manage to donate 250 wheelchairs to underdeveloped nations, sometimes we raise millions for a cancer hospital - the importance of an issue is not necessarily best measured against other issues, but more to what it means for the individual.
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 9:47:00 AM
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UTDC
Posts: 221
Joined: December 21, 2003
Status: offline
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Sebastian,
Well said and point well taken. Despite my inherent bias, I do believe that it possible to take an objective stance on this issue. Unfortunately, I do not see this demonstrated by the originator of this post or by the webpage displaying the petition.
Jeff
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 11:17:00 AM
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Dr.Wagner
Posts: 1237
Joined: January 24, 2003
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
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UTDC,
Have you ever seen a pneumothorax from Accupuncture??? I haven't...wild.
Hey a while back I posted a discussion regarding a patient I had that developed GROIN CELLULITIS from very very deep tissue massage to the inguinal region.
Should this type of lymph massage/deep tissue massage create a ban?
Perhaps it should be another topic.
_____________________________
Dr. Wagner DO
Moderator of Medical Complexity Forum
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 11:28:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1697
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
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Thanks for that Jeff. Your place sounds as safe as a bomb shelter except for the "physical therapy" burns. Nice.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Petition to stop neck manipulation - August 22, 2005 12:14:00 PM
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karmzack
Posts: 181
Joined: March 20, 2005
From: Hawaii
Status: offline
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The petition posted is nothing more that a novelty, I really don’t think world governments are going to take notice. If you look at other petitions from this site you will find a petition to Marc’s mom to allow Kwame to take Marc to the senior prom – 95 signatures, also a petition to have the Smurfs on DVD – 2680 signatures, and last to have the rap star 50 Cent to pose naked – 2453 signatures.
This petition is a one sided opinion poll, definitely not a valid petition.
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Zack Solomon MPT, OCS, CSCS
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