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Re: Why is APTA membership so low?
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 2:09:00 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
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From: Michigan
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Drew, 12 non-members is a pretty low N value in my mind. Was it a sample of convenience?
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 2:47:00 PM
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Echaconas
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Joined: May 12, 2005
From: Baltimore, MD
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Rick, your points are right on. If anyone thinks that APTA membership is not worth the money, PLEASE attend either the Federal Government Affairs forum or the State Government Affairs forum held by the APTA. There you will meet the hardest working government affairs staff one could ask for. The federal forum gives you the opportunity to not only learn about the current issues but also lobby congress. The state forum is coming up next month on September 25 in Annapolis, MD. This meeting will give you the opportunity to learn about current state issues and hear from some great speakers. The APTA staff is dedicated organized and fighting for our rights. We all need to support them and join the effort to advance our profession. Please take an active stance, join, donate to the PT-PAC and make a difference. Our effort today will impact our practice in the future.
Eric Chaconas SPT
Univeristy of St. Augustine
_____________________________
E. Chaconas PT,DPT,MTC,CSCS
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 4:16:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
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Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Ya'll misunderstand. I put a summary down because I don't think anyone (not even my mother) would want to read through 300+ pages of text . . .
The critical information, in my opinion, is from the economic analysis was of nearly 65,000 physical therapist subjects (Rick, are you suggesting that including every licensed PT in the United States wasn't a large enough n????). If you were a PT in 1996, your membership status was included. As such, I feel very, very comfortable with the power of my economic analysis in demonstrating that the "cost of membmership" that McGinty demonstrated 90% of non-members pointing to as the reason for their non-membmership is not the same thing as the "price of membership." Specifically, less than 9% of the reason is price. That finding was shocking enough to have earned me a PhD without the additional post-hoc qualitative research that my council insisted that I explore. On that economic point that "cost" and "price" (although until that point assumed to be the same) were not the same, the power of my study is extrodinarily high and not derived from only 12 subjects.
The quantitative economic study continued with qualitative study of 12 subjects. It was NOT a sample of convenience (ANYTING BUT!), but rather a targeted sample of subjects specifically selected from a variety of clinical settings (e.g. hospital, private practice, preschool), age ranges, marital status, clinical speciality, geographic areas spanning 4 states, etc. This is a common approach for qualitative study, and furthermore, most qualitative studies of this nature don't generally have more than 20 or so subjects. The point of this type/portion of my study, was NOT to generalize results, but rather --- due to the extrodinary disparity between 90% and 9% --- to GENERATE hypothesis for future testing. Once the qualitative database (I used an N4 NUD*IST database), becomes saturated --- which is to say no new patterns emerge, the study is closed and no new subjects are taken. I had the option to continue with another 15 or so willing subjects, but I got tired of hearing the same relative themes from every subject, and my dissertation council (all with extensive qualitative research experience, plus a few well-known adjuncts in the PT field), agreed that it was time to wrap it up. A dissertation IS NOT supposed to be a person's life work, but rather the initial justification for a PhD's life work. The qualitative aspect of my dissertation was simply designed to be a compass in that regard for this an other future researchers.
It's a common critique of people who really don't understand qualitative research all that well, or at least not as much as quantitative methods. For future reference (and future torment) a more correct question, SJ, would be, "So Drew, have you tested any of your theories with any continuing quantitative post-hoc research studies? Has the APTA?"
The answer, as luck would have it, is no . . . er . . . yes . . . well sort of. Over the past year or so, I have been working with a few other very well known researchers/well published authors on updating the data of my study AND going into greater depth into some of the hypothesis raised in my study. The study is done, the intro is done, we're working on the conclusions and discussion.
Finally, Krager, let me assure you that going and presenting at APTA headquarters that, "it's not price folks . . . and ya'll are doing it wrong," is NOT the best way to earn friends at the APTA. It forces the executive council to turn the mirror on themselves and consider that non-members may not be the apathetic shlubbs that it's so easy to write them off as being. It forces the executive officers to consider the concepts of "relative/prioritized opportunity cost" and their rank within the mind of the non-member being somewhere between baby diapers and an extra week of camp for the 7-year old. Saying to people, a group of people that I greatly respect by the way, "You're doing it wrong, there is a better way to attract and keep members," and, "You as a group don't have nearly the value amoung your peers that you'd like to think you do," is NO WAY to earn friends. A small degree of respect perhaps --- but only the same kind of respect that a Red Sox fan has for the Yankees.
I did the 4 years of work I did for the good of the profession, NOT to "brown nose," and given the personal and professional "falling on the sword" sacrafice entailed in doing so, I take GREAT offense to your implication, even if a joke. I see only 4 other researchers in our profession even engaging this "third rail," and I'm guessing you're not the 5th in a new breed --- or are you?
All of that said, the point of research and the presentation of this kind of study is the GENERATE DISCUSSION and ENCOURAGE FUTURE RESEARCH. Many of you have had some great points with regard to my study, so I ask/challenge you, "Where is your contribution to the literature base? Take your idea and run with it! It's a Healthcare Management, Organizational Psychology, or Sociology PhD!"
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 4:33:00 PM
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tc
Posts: 137
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From: Los Angeles area
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In Ca it's over 500$, so to also join a section it's over 550$. That's a big chunk of change if your employer doesn't cover it and doesn't cover con-ed either. I know it sounds like a lame excuse, but if I'm going to pay that much, I'd rather take a class and learn something new. In theory I think it's great and was a member as a student, with the reduced rate. If it was in the 300$ range, I'd join.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 4:41:00 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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Drew, you did state 12 APTA non-member therapists. I have no idea where you are coming up with a 70,000 figure in your rebuttal, I'm assuming that figure came from someone else's study or from the membership statistics at the time you did your qualitative study. And the location of your subjects was where in the United States? And getting tired of hearing the same relative themes is a reason to not continue with the other 15 you had? I don't know, but that's not how research should be based - basing it on the level of boredom the researcher has. Sometimes getting by with the bare minimum is enough for some people, I guess.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 4:44:00 PM
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curio
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Interested to know what the cost and membership percentage is for the DC's, ATC's, etc...and average donation to thier P.A.C.??
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:22:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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SJ,
If you think it's easy getting information from every state board of physical therapy about how many PT's they have, and cross-referencing that information with each state's association's numbers about how many PT's are members of that state's association (counting for duplicates) AND having an understanding of supply-demand economics sufficient for processing the information --- then I suggest you do it. If it were that easy, everyone would have earned a PhD . . .
Even WITH the APTA's help, 1996 data was the most complete data set I could get, and that was in 2001. Given your "people skills," I'm SURE you could do much better, right? Tell you what, YOU get the data, YOU process it, and I'll even write the article for you and give you first authorship for my efforts. Until then, piss off.
Furthermore, before you go off on my, "piss off" comment, I suggest that that your prior comments about "getting by with the bare minimum being good enough for some people," is so far out of line that responding to you in kind from here on out is FAR more respect than I should be expected to extend to you in the first place.
Congratulations, SJ, you're officially the first internet poster to TRULY get me angry. Not even the dishonest, unethical, lying chiropractors at ChiroWeb (they know who they are) have managed to do that. Your inappropriate comments to me, and others, certainly have not started in this thread, but they're going to end here and now. I'm all for free speach and all, but if you can't behave to a reasonable level of respect, I'm going to have to support the previous efforts by others to have you banned.
Last time I checked, you didn't have a PhD. Last time I checked, you hadn't published original research. Last time I checked, you hadn't taken a single class (much less a degree) in economic research nor qualitative research methodologies. Bare minimum?!?!? Give me a freaking break. You want to imply that I'M somehow lazy or substandard because I only spent 8 hours a day over 4 years doing this research? Who the hell do you think you are to even offer comment, much less pejorative critique? Some pretty big names gathered at APTA headquarters to hear what I had to say on the subject. Do you honestly think that I or anyone else has the slightest of care as to what your qualitatively uneducated self has to say on the subject?
Get a grip.
Care to invite others to, by comparison, explain what my being, by your implication, lazy and substandard, makes you? I'm sure Barrett, for starters, has a few choice words for you.
This is once too many times SJ. Considering how often I've fought for your right to speak your mind, regardless of how silly, uneducated, or off topic it may have been --- I find your comments a royal personal and professional slap in the face. Enough is enough. My patience for you and your personally disrespectful comments has run out. I will, from now on, as in this posting respond without emotion or venom, but quite in kind.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:27:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Curio,
I don't have data on PAC donation, but I can say that DC membership in the ACA or ICA isn't much higher than PT's in the APTA (40% or so combined last time I checked). The difference is that DC's can join their state association without joining the national or international organization. Membership in state associations varies from state to state, but is generally much, much, higher than for ACA or ICA membership.
I did not examine ATC's beyond pilot study1, so I can't comment other than to say initial estimates suggest a MUCH higher membership saturation of ATC's in their national association than PT's or DC's. The NATA was VERY guarded and wouldn't give up the information easily (I'm not sure, as not all states required license, if they even knew the answer). After about 6 months of trying for the information, I eventually gave up and excluded ATC's from the analysis.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:37:00 PM
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certMDT
Posts: 154
Joined: April 5, 2004
From: Durham, NC
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SJ -
I've never posted on this board regarding interpersonal issues before, but I just don't understand your hostility towards Drew here. With his direct research experience, he is probably one of the top people in the world to help answer this specific question, and he is good enough to present his ideas and then clearly and specifically answer any questions posted. His response has given me a much better understanding of qualitative studies, and if he says that there was nothing further to be gained, I am sure that's not the "bare minimum" - his advisors would likely have had him continue had it been necessary.
Posts like this are what drive people away from message boards and away from sharing information. I know that others have taken issue with Drew's "direct" style in the past, but your post seems more aggressive than necessary.
Charlie
_____________________________
Charles Sheets PT OCS Dip MDT
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:43:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
Joined: May 8, 2004
From: West Palm Beach
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so how bout them red sox?
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:43:00 PM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1478
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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Here in PA, they just changed the law, where PTA's can no longer perform "mobilizations". They are quite vague about that term, but it basically takes their ability to perform simple joint mobilization, and/or even soft tissue mobilization. I know people that pressed them for a clarification, and all that was recieved was a canned answer. So, now to cover my butt, I have to really limit what I can have the PTA do. Ultimate loser? The patient. Why rejoin when they have done something like that?
They offer the ability to pay via installments, instead of lump sum, but then charge an extra amount for that....a method to make some extra cash for them that is really not needed.
Little was done to change the legislation regarding POPTS, which has affected so many of us , another bone of contention with many PT's
Duffy
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:52:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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TC,
Your comments are a great example, you're talking about price at first glance, but upon further assessment, you're also saying that the value that you assign to continuing education is greater than the value you assign to APTA membership . . . by your numbers, nearly twice as valuable. I understand your comment that dropping membership dues to 300 dollars would result in your joining, unfortunately, my 1996 data (of 65K PT's in the US) showed that dropping membership dues to 75 dollars wouldn't result in membership saturation crossing 50%. Pretty sad isn't it?!?!
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 5:56:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Duffy,
Your comments would fall into another common category loosely defined as, "I used to be an APTA member but they are moving in a direction that I don't agree with and/or hurts my business." A very common theme among non-members actually --- higher than expected and NOT something that the APTA leadership wanted to hear. (Not something I really wanted to tell them either --- that whole falling on the sword for the good of the profession thing). Rest assured that, in a way, you're comments were heard.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 6:01:00 PM
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FLAOrthoPT
Posts: 1011
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From: West Palm Beach
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I think something has to be said about being on a winning team. It is tough to be, umm, let's say for argument sake a Redskins fan the last 12 years or so. People will not rally much behind them unless they get a new coach from Florida or from the grave and even then the hype is short lived.
Well, I think for me, at least, I love the profession as a whole, but when I see our profession being chipped away and diluted and tons of apathetic fans so to speak, it is sometimes frustrating to rally your own fans, and therefore, sometimes easier to join the apathy. There is only so much time to fight for patients to their doctors, to their insurance, etc, and still have fight left over for the profession from other professionals (terms used loosely) such as LMT and ATC and Exer. Phys, DC, etc claiming more and more turf.
When things are going well, of course we'll have band wagoners. But I think things have not gone well and all and all a lot of people are disillusioned with how much the profession is not marketed to the public or other healthcare professionals and how many times a day we hear, oh I am going to my trainer or my chiropractor, etc..and when you try to do something they say or are you doing chiropractor? and I am like no! I am doing physical therapy!
Well, it is late and I am rambling, but it is tough to stand in front of the professiona nd yell hooray when there is an empty audience at times. I would personally like to see all of my membership money spent on national public awareness, but until we all come together and agree on what actually is important and have a common mission and straight forward plan and timeline, I think my 400-500 dollars will be better spent on my own self promotion and advertising.
Ok there are some discussion points somewhere in there, in the meantime, good night, and go sox.
Ben
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 6:07:00 PM
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Andrew M. Ball PT PhD
Posts: 855
Joined: July 28, 2002
From: Charlotte, NC
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Ben,
Poor membership cohesion about professional vision is a HUGELY POWERFUL reason that PT's don't join. It is NOT the same thing as apathy, as some might suggest.
I would raise the question, however, isn't promotion and public awareness the responsiblity of every PT (perhaps organized at the state and district level)? Furthermore, I'd hope (and I'll get to the dangers of that word in a minute), that with the advent of tDPT's with 10 years of experience AND a doctorate, that the level of professional dedication and promotion among rank-and-file PT's will begin to improve.
Hope, however, is a dangerous thing. It allows the world to pass us by without taking ownership of the situation and its solutions.
Drew
_____________________________
Dr. Andrew M. Ball, PT, DPT, Ph.D.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 16, 2005 6:30:00 PM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
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Ummm... if you take offense to my comments, well, you were the one that said you decided not to interview the other potential candidates because you were tired of hearing the same thing over and over...
[QUOTE]I had the option to continue with another 15 or so willing subjects, but I got tired of hearing the same relative themes from every subject,[/QUOTE]I just don't believe that's an adequate reason to not have a greater "n" value. Excuse me for my own interpretation of what you wrote. Obviously I struck a chord... I couldn't believe the rationale you had for stopping at 12. It was only my opinion and you wanted discussion generated. If you have an option to collect more data and you choose not collect more data because of boredom, then yes, I see that as choosing to do what will get you by.
And, you didn't state how you got the 70,000 figure - if you don't communicate, how am I supposed to know?
Ban me? I don't view what I write as aggressive or rude. David A. would email me and tell me... he hasn't emailed me. I think you are being overly sensitive. And if you don't care what my qualitatively, uneducated self thinks, then why get so upset? You really don't want a discussion and you really don't want questions and you really don't want any comments on what you did... why did you post it? And remember, you also choose your emotions. I did not get you angry, you choose to be angry. Just as I am choosing to explain the rationale behind my opinion versus apologizing or becoming upset at you.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 17, 2005 2:05:00 AM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Drew,
I'm with you (big surprise!). As I travel and encourage people to participate in public discussions the same concern rises again and again; that the poster will be villified by another who doesn't have any interest in learning anything, but only in blabbing on and on about how much more they supposedly know and how heroic they tend to be. This person doesn't miss an opportunity to characterize others as lazy, rather dull, predatory and other lovely things but reserves the right to repeatedly say, "I didn't mean...", "I was kidding...", I meant your actions-not you," or similar rationalizations and obfuscations.
People see this here and run in the opposite direction, especially when they see no third party object. It appears those days are over.
We'll see.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 17, 2005 2:19:00 AM
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SJBird55
Posts: 2438
Joined: May 10, 2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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You know those "blink" decisions... well, Drew and Barrett, you two do it all the time. Yeah, I do so much blabbing - look at the length of my posts.
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 17, 2005 2:24:00 AM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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?
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Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Why is APTA membership so low? - August 17, 2005 3:19:00 AM
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Randy Dixon
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While I think questioning Drew about his study is fine I think people were awful quick to try to find fault with it. A doctoral thesis isn't easy to complete and he presented here for our information, not our critique. If you have read his dissertation and done your own statistical analysis of it and have disagreements, then it is fine to present them, otherwise I think a flippant challenge to his methodology is an implied insult to his intelligence and professionalism. Asking is fine, challenging without basis, isn't it.
SJ,
Your argument that no insult was given or meant might have possibly carried some weight except for:
"Sometimes getting by with the bare minimum is enough for some people, I guess."-SJ
This criticism might be understandable, rude, but understandable, if you were presenting your own study with a significantly greater number of people interviewed. Have you read his dissertation? Do you know the power the study had, or anything else you are criticizing?
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