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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 12:21:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
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From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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:D :D :D :D :D :D
Rick, too true.
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 1:18:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
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[QUOTE]Anyone who doesn't honestly agree that Chrio's in the US utilize the terms Physical Therapy, Physiotherapy and so on in their advertisements as a way to take advantage of the good name that Physical Therapy has in this country and to mislead their patients into believing that what they are recieving is the same care that they would get at a true PT's office has got their head burried in the sand.
[/QUOTE]Rick I can only speak for myself but I have never for ONE SECOND thought of 'taking advantage of the good name of PT' when I call what I do PT. Feel free to attempt to read my mind but I'm sorry, you're just plain wrong. To be perfectly candid, I don't feel the SLIGHTEST need to be validated in that way. Nothing personal, it's just the way it is.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 1:39:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
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From: Texas
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Greg,
I agree with Rick simply because I live it each work day. I work with a group of chiropractors in the same facility, but we are under different names. I watch them on a daily basis 'taking advantage of the good name of physical therapy'. I won't for one second think that this style of getting patients through the door is an isolated incident as I'm quite sure it is not. On the other hand, and I apologize if I seem to be contradicting myself, I realize that lots of DCs are not that way, including yourself (judging from your previous posts).
You're always providing great feedback and insight here and I appreciate it. I don't think Rick's intentions were to suggest that you do act in this way as his statement was generalized the the chiropractic profession (at least seemingly so).
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 2:57:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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Well I don't know that I can shed any more light on this from a chiropractic standpoint without causing trouble or bad feelings, which I certainly don't want to do.
Suffice it to say that I totally understand your desire to guard your turf and your profession's name, and if I were a PT I would very likely do exactly the same thing.
Diane, you asked about the 120 hour class - I can only speak for me but my course while in school was almost useless. Honestly, I learned to use modalities during postgrad training. I'm certain that my training in modalities wasn't as clinically in-depth as yours, but honestly how difficult is it to learn red flags and how to use an ultrasound unit? My eyes kind of glazed over during the part where we were looking at overhead projector images of electron microscopy slides of muscle fibrils. But the PT that did my formal training (the didactic part) was not, in my opinion, a good representative of the PT profession. At least I hope not. :)
Hey, you guys have a great week. About 4 hours ago I bought a 2005 Harley Night Train, tricked out with a PhatTail rear end, Vance and Hines pipes that are so loud that they'll scare children and old ladies, and a rear tire about as wide as Lake Superior. Midnight gray. Man, you should see the stupid grin that comes across my face when I fire it up. I look like Alfred E. Neuman, just not as good looking as him. But I sure feel cool when I'm riding it.
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 3:56:00 PM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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Greg,
You make my point. "How difficult is it to learn red flags and how to use an ultrasound unit." Exactly! and this is why I have such a hard time when chiro's who have spent 120 hours doing just that call it physical therapy.
As for not taking advantage of the publics high regard for "Physcial Therapy" lets just say that if the roles were reversed and PT's were the ones largely seen to be on the fringe of medicine at best, I am sure the chiro profession would come up with another term to utilize when they want to promote the fact that they know how to do ultrasound. How about this one, ultrasound.
The ad could read like this:
Johnson Chiropractic
Auto injuries
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 4:01:00 PM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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Sorry, my daughter hit the send key, the ad should say
Johnson Chiropractic
Auto Accidents Work Comp
Personal Injuries Insurance Accepted
Spine Care Ultrasound
Electric Stim Exercise
Not quite as sexy is it.
Greg, I appreciate your knowledge and learn from your posts, this is not a personal attack on you. See Arkansas case topic I posted today to know why I am a little set off today.
Rick
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 4:05:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
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From: Amherst, WI
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Rick,
You have a young rehabedger in the making? Is this her first post? She should really sign on under her own name though.
jon
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[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 4:26:00 PM
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chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
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[QUOTE]...this is not a personal attack on you. See Arkansas case topic I posted today to know why I am a little set off today.[/QUOTE]No problem at all Rick, I didn't take it as a personal attack at all.
Greg
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Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 4:27:00 PM
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UTDC
Posts: 222
Joined: December 21, 2003
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Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to hear that your relationship with the chiros in your office is less than ideal. Could you please give an example of the behavior which bothers you?
Thanks
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 5:37:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
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From: Texas
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Jeff,
I could be here all night explaining things so I'll keep it short. Basically, I've already stated above and in other threads that I'm bothered when a non-PT claims to call what they're doing physical therapy. Some might say "Do you mean PT in lower or upper case?". I've seen this several times in this thread and it makes absolutely ZERO sense and is quite irrelevant to the topic at hand. I just do not believe in exploiting one profession so as to benefit another profession.
This is being done at the clinic I work at on a daily basis. Even though the chiro side and PT side at the facility I'm at are completely independent, they [read: the chiros] still market Physical Therapy when they're at malls or health clubs doing screenings. Hell, I even spoke to the chiro owner one time and she said by doing that they can reach a broader range of people. IMHO, I think it's utter bullshit...plain and simple! They make it seem as if the patient's that do come in for PT will be seeing me when in fact they see the 'Director of Rehab' who is a non-licensed chiro that does various things around the clinic except adjust.
These poor patients that they end up seeing...whew...I feel sorry for them! They never d/c them despite positive functional gains and reports of independence with functional activities. It's ridiculous to say the least. Often times, they will refer these patients over to me after they've wiped out their insurance. These patients typically wonder what the hell I'm doing with them...saying "This isn't what the other PT had me do", "That other therapist never spent time with me like you do", or "I haven't been able to walk like this in a long time".
When I'm in the clinic working with my patients I can't tell you how many times a chiro patient performing 'Physical Therapy' has asked me questions about their rehab. One of my favorites was a post-op fusion of their's that was a work comp case. He was only 1-2 weeks post-op (if that) and he asked me why this one exercise was hurting him so much. Well, they had him performing an iliopsoas stretch...way too soon after a fusion. HELLO!
These are just a few examples of what I see daily. I apologize for going into too much detail, but I felt it pertinent to do so given the breadth of this topic. I hope I answered your questions Jeff. :)
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 5:53:00 PM
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TLB
Posts: 353
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From: Arizona
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Rick,
Absolutely the truth or the TRUTH.
Greg,
No offense but your talking about a profession not just physical therapy or Physical Therapy. I'll promise you know one here (ie PT) advertises chiropractic.
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Todd
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 6:35:00 PM
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UTDC
Posts: 222
Joined: December 21, 2003
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hey Chris,
I can understand why you are upset, I agree that this type of behavior is both unprofessional and unethical. It sounds like you need to get out of there.
Jeff
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 7, 2005 7:45:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
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From: Texas
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Jeff,
You're telling me! I would have been gone long ago, but given my current situation (new house, new baby, good pay, great location) I can't make that move. However, I'm sure something will eventually surface that is comparable to what I make salary wise.
I'm glad you didn't read too much into what I wrote. I was on my proverbial 'soap box' and it actually felt good. Still though, I'm often bewildered at how the chiros I work with brow-beat these patients into thinking they provide a service entitled 'physical therapy'. From what I've seen, they don't provide anything at all except time wasted to help return a patient to his/her premorbid functional status. Very very sad!
I hope you truly see and understand my point of view on this matter. If it goes on in my clinic then I'm quite positive it goes on elsewhere. That's where I think the tension from the PTs may stem from...knowing full well that this type of blatant disregard for our profession is happening everywhere. I don't think for one second that this is typical of EVERY chiropractor, but the fact remains it does happen and it does nothing but degrade physical therapy in the long run.
Who knows...maybe I'm just rambling incoherently. :)
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Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 2:04:00 AM
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Sebastian Asselbergs
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Joined: September 29, 1999
From: Barrie, Canada
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As long as we (PTs) do not have the political weight to have the term "physical therapy" legally protected (an extremely unlikely possibility - term has no strong definition), we can not complain if someone uses a theminology that is perfectly legal. Yes, pissed off when we think it denigrates our profession or "steals" from us, but it is simply a question of NOT having a term legally protected. Here in Ontario, no-one but a registered PT can claim to be a physiotherapist - but many professions can claim doing physical therapy, including MTs. Since we couldn't get protection for terminology, associations have focussed on the public education: i.e. Are you getting your physiotherpay from a registered physiotherapist?
Now, to make this even more flammable: in too many clinics, "physiotherapy" means a quick lookover by a PT and then treatment provided by a "helper" - is THAT not even more a travesty?
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Mundi vult decipi
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 2:25:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
Joined: May 20, 2002
From: Illinois
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We have to stop worrying about what the chiros are doing now and what the chiros get to do and so on. We have to focus on our field and our issues. There are so many threads here that are focused on the chiros. So what, good for them if they get to perform therapy and have therapy in their facilities. If we focus on bringing our field to the forefront and do mass marketing of physical therapy, then the community will know that you go to a physical therapist for physical therapy. Its just like any other business, its kinda like a White Castle restaurant that has started serving breakfast, now maybe its not that bad but if I want a good breakfast then i am going to a restaurant that focuses on serving breakfast only.
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 2:40:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
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From: USA
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Kid-
For what's it's worth, I think overall the APTA and the PT profession has done an EXCELLENT job of just focusing on our profession and on high standards of research, practice, and education.
But stuff like this is so much more visceral to talk about.
And we do get posters with interesting points of view...
Oops, gotta go. There's a low back patient I need to perform chiropractic on as part of their Physical Therapy.
Whatever...
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 3:22:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
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From: Illinois
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There is a reason why chiros are doing this. What we do works!! They want to add therapeutic approaches to their programs because they know it works. I agree that the APTA has done a good job with this, I just feel that we don't need to be placing blame on the chiros. They are just doing what they feel like they have to to stay ahead. If rulings go in their favor, its not their fault but the fault of the people ruling. For whatever stupid idiotic reason we have these codes that are universal and not specific to just us, that is the problem. Get that changed, and the chiro problem is now fixed and maybe our reimbursements for what we do will also change.
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 4:37:00 AM
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dosrinc
Posts: 335
Joined: December 9, 2004
From: Bonita Springs
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Sebastian,
You make a great point, in fact I read an aticle in the NJ Star Ledger this weekend entitled
"Client's Shoulder injury costs Newark rehab center $3million"
A Healthsouth in New Jersey allowed a non liscensed "helper" to do T-bar abductions with a post RCR patient who subsequently tore the repair with what sounds like an avulsion, cost them 3 mil at trial. So know we have a Healthsouth policy that sets precedent for a jury reward and will likely increase insurance premiums for us all. Actually I shouldn't blame the Healthsout without also posting blame to the PT who allowed this to occur. It is ultimately the PT's responsibility in my opinion but the lawyers go after the deep pockets. So those of you out there who still practice this way, I would suggest that you keep your premiums paid and although I don't have a link, maybe you should google this article. Sorry for changing topics.
Rick
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 4:46:00 AM
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kragar
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Joined: August 1, 2005
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Part of the problem is that PT has never been unified both in theories, educational requirements, continuing education, or basic approach. So how can one DEFINE PHYSICAL THERAPY??
This is a mess we ourselves have gotten into, and to blame chiropractic is nonsense. It is the fault of Physical Therapy.
Look at what PT USED to be, respiratory treatments, cardiovascular rehab, HAND therapy. We don't know WHAT WE WANT!
And most of this you can blame on the APTA...because you can't blame chiropractic for those bumbles!
_____________________________
You're my boy Blue!
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Re: State Practice Act & Use of Titles - August 8, 2005 5:35:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
Joined: May 20, 2002
From: Illinois
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Now we are talking!!
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