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Re: DPT education
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 7:05:00 AM
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curio
Posts: 70
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On a tangent..that study can be used to educate docs that yeah, we can effectively diagnose and treat most musculoskeletal problems...market the profession a bit...PT is terrible in marketing in my opinion...
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 7:10:00 AM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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Curio,
I agree with that. I never see physical therapy advertised or marketed anywhere--and believe me I have looked. Chiros are everywhere---TV, newspaper, even grocery stores. You think the APTA would have more television time representing the profession--especially in America where people never leave their couches.
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 7:32:00 AM
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KIDPT23
Posts: 222
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From: Illinois
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I have only been practicing for 5 1/2 yrs so I would not consider myself an elder P.T. I do believe that the DPT is an excellent avenue for us to have or pursue, but I feel that articles like the previous are creating separation in our profession. There should never be comments or references to the DPT therapist having any superiority over the experienced lesser degreed P.T. What the #@#@# are we trying to do here. We are creating separation and division within our profession when we need to be 100% teamed together to take on the serious issues that is jeopardizing our future.
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 8:11:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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Kid-
I don't know that it creates any separation, more seeming to just describe differences.
Just as it isn't saying we should fire the family practice people in place of PTs, it's also not saying we should get rid of the MPT students. It seems to me to be just support for where we're headed.
Mark-
APTA doesn't have the money to advertise and do all the other things they do.
I think you'll find the advertising you see for other professionals is done by individual businesses, not their professional organizations. That is, those providers that can reinvest their profits back into the business becuase they don't work for someone else.
Isn't that the real problem when it comes to advertising?
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 8:42:00 AM
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Wisecracker
Posts: 70
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The "test" was/is relatively easy. Life-West instructor Malik Slosberg DC, MS, PA administered it to his 6th quarter cardiopulmonary path students 4-5 years ago as a curiosity. The is a follow-up test on an earlier study, same questions. The mean score was 86% in that class of 23 students with no one getting less than a 74% and three getting 100%. He remarks about this in his lecture series, of course you can't extrapolate these findings to the larger chiro population, but it is interesting nonetheless, especially if you take the position that higher score means better/smarter providers.
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 8:56:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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I guess it would be more interesting if it weren't anecdotal.
I am definitely ready to believe that many DCs would do well on the test, esp vs primary care MD types.
I know the faculty of the medical schools were suprised at their students' performance, but if Wisecracker's right, we should be letting the DCs take those Orthopedic surgery jobs right now...
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 10:32:00 AM
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kragar
Posts: 23
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I guess I really don't understand the purpose of the PT directed article...But there are a LOT of ways you could use that article and interpret it.
Hell, what if the same test was given to ATC's and they scored REALLY well, should it be used in the same way to justify direct access for them...what about OT's etc?
The Physician article certainly made a point directed at medical education, but having worked for some arrogant orthopods, it is no surprise they think medical education should sway toward their way of thinking (like everyone else). I am sure medical education could be improved, but having a cousin in medical school...my understanding their plate is already pretty full.
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You're my boy Blue!
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 10:36:00 AM
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Wisecracker
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Actually, we have no qualifications for ortho surgery, lol. But the results were (I believe and I will look it up) published in a peer-reviewed indexed journal (JMPT). Again I'll look it up and post it when I get a minute. I speak from some experience as I took the test, it was printed in the chiro rag Dyanamic Chiropractic, and performed relatively well (I don't recall the score but it was above the pass rate). I spoke to a couple family practice docs, they weren't surprised by the results and their response was virtually identical, we don't need to know anything but the red flags so that we can refer appropriately. Because according to them that's what their primary job is...triage.
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 10:38:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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You don't understand the purpose of PTs wanting to document such knowledge, or you don't understand why PTs would need/want such knowledge?
If the purpose of this article in the context of more direct access/autonomy/the DPT issue doesn't occur to you, then I'm not sure what to say.
I agree that the physicians have enough to worry about, academically, as it is. One could argue that they get overloaded and are asked, at least at the primary care level, to know and do too much. Which is what makes primary care musculoskeletal treatment such a great niche for PTs to continue to fill.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 3:14:00 PM
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dross
Posts: 54
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From: NJ
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Being a DC,MD I can honestly tell you that medical students/medical interns know very little about musculo-skeletal dx and even less about mngt. Internists deal with the stuff that will kill you if left unmanaged or poorly managed, thats where the focus is. I'm an IM resident, low back pain and shoulder pain take a back seat to CHF, pericarditis and GI bleeds in the world of Internal medicine. Im not saying that musculo-skeletal conditions are not important, but its not the focus of a med student or IM resident.
Any DC that cant out score an Internist on a msk exam should quit.
Doug
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 3:28:00 PM
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vt2c1ms
Posts: 74
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From: Kansas
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chirx,
What made you go to MD school and leave chiropractic. I assume you became a DC first then headed to MD school. I bet your debt load is off the hook :) .
Mark
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 9:53:00 PM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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I am not surprised by these results and in the Army we have known about this for a long time. In fact, in the Army PTs have been seeing direct access patients since the 1970s. This is exactly the reason Army PTs can prescribe meds, labs, order x-rays, MRIs, bone scans, and can refer to any other clinics. (JOSPT, Vol 19 Number 5 May 1994. The United States Army Physical Therapy Experience: Evaluation and Treatment of Patients with Neuromusculoskeletal Disorders.) I think the Army has led the way in efforts for direct access being carried over to civilian practice.
Here in Europe (Germany, Italy, Belgium), EVERY military facility has a direct access PT program and we are currently collecting outcome data for the various musculoskeletal complaints treated in direct access by PTs.
I was one of the subjects in the study mentioned above a few years ago and took the test. It was easy. When I took the test, I expected to see these results. It is obvious, and was predicted in the JOSPT article written over 10 years ago, that PTs are the best providers to see acute Musculoskeletal injuries. We will continue to add data to support this.
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: DPT education - August 3, 2005 9:54:00 PM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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Kragar,
I would love to see OTs and ATC take this test. From the ATCs and OTs that I have worked with I would predict that they would not score highly.
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: DPT education - August 4, 2005 1:51:00 AM
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jma
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From: NY
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Same here. There are a lot of combos that could be done with this type of study, comparing different disciplines.
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Re: DPT education - August 4, 2005 9:30:00 AM
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mcap56
Posts: 619
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From: New York, NY
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I like this study a lot. It was well done and it will hopefully be the first of many along the same line.
As a researcher, there are still things that come to mind. One issue is that you have PTs grading open ended questions on exams by PTs. No matter how rigorously they use the guidelines or what the ICCs were, it still raises potential bias issues. If the group also contained physician exams (blinded) it would be more valid.
Also, I don't know that this is an endorsement of the DPT (which I happen to favor). Regardless of T-tests and P-values....the difference was only 4 points higher than Master's. And what about confounding? It could be that many of the more established and perhaps better programs have switched to the DPT ahead of their less established counterparts. If that is the case, it is the program, and not the degre that is responsible.
Some other things that jump out.......I would actually expect more of a margin between PTs and family practice MDs. Don't forget that the licensed PTs in the study were from the military and therefore may have some additional training in primary care for MSDs.
Still, dont' get me wrong. I really like this study and will be sending it off to my students.
Take care,
mcap
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