|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine?
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 7:00:00 AM
|
|
|
coreconcepts
Posts: 68
Joined: April 13, 2005
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
|
"I have to admit that as cynical and untrusting by nature as I might be, I am becoming more open to experimenting with alternative medicines. I don't mean taking them myself, I mean pretending I've taken them with great success and recommending them to friends and neighbors so they'll take them, and I can see if they really do work."
Dennis Miller
Allow me to take a step outside of the highly philosophical avenue this thread has taken. There has been some really amazing insight from many on the subject. I have to put the question out there - what complementary therapies/concepts out there do you feel (if any) have the requisite biological plausibility and physical possibility to be efficacious, or at least worthy of further investigation? The physio clinic I refer clients to has recently branched into acupuncture, which led me to assume that there may be a body of physiotherapists that believe it to be a useful therapy (All the acupuncturists at the clinic are also PT’s. BTW). My stance on medicine is that I believe exclusive reliance on either CAM or conventional medicine is a slippery slope. I belive in investigating all possibilities and using a therapy which I believe will help correct the underlying problem, and/or provide relief from whatever the discomfort may be. As antithetical as it sounds, I believe in EBM but would not hesitate to try a therapy that has promise (the eluded to “physical possibility”) but has not been put through the ringer of scientific process. I take vitamins and fish oil supplements, drink green tea and will often turn to herbs as a front-line remedy for certain ailments - all this only after researching various therapies for safety and efficacy. I will take advil if I have a headache and a course of antibiotics if I have a bacterial infection.
This topic is of great interest to me - particularly as it relates to nutrition. The challenge to me, is finding non-biased studies and information. This has lead me to abandon information provided by anybody even resembling a special interest group. Those who are the most vocal are often those who take the most extreme stances. Alternative proponents constantly condemn all that is allopathic and we often hear that if it isn’t “natural” it isn’t “safe” or “beneficial”, and that medical doctors are uncaring scientists that only try to please drug companies. The AM field has a point: Western medicine cannot escape their stigma of corruption due to the collusion between the FDA and the pharm companies. CAM apologists will play this card every single time. Admittedly, I have grown distrustful of this aspect of allopathic medicine.
Having said that, I have become increasingly skeptical about AM. Aside from the lack of hard evidence of many of the concepts, I have a strong distaste for the fear-mongering employed by the natural medicine practitioners. Although this may not directly lead to financial gain by its proponents, I believe it has become an underhanded way of legitimizing themselves, whilst steering people away from conventional methods. To cite a few examples based on my aforementioned interest in the nutrition field, I know people who are absolutely convinced that artificial sweeteners are deadly and cause anything from acne to herpes zoster. I think the naturopathic “creed” forbids practitioners from taking an objective stance on the subject. As someone who makes a living trying to promote sound nutritional habits, I tell people that the items that contain artificial sweeteners should not be consumed often anyway, but it would be irresponsible of me to tell them it is dangerous if there is no evidence to support the claim. Other I find myself having somewhat colourful discussions with "holistic nutritionists" on issues such as cleansing (your liver is toxic don’t you know!) and food combining (whatever you do, don’t combine carbs with protein, or let your intestines become acidic), eating for your blood type (type O’s shouldn’t eat lentils because it causes sludging), enzyme theory (eat your veggies raw or your life will be shortened), organic food (pesticides are killing us all slowly) bowel cleansing (you don’t expect your intestines to do their job, do you?).
Anyway, that’s enough venting for a Saturday morning.
“There's acupuncture, which works on the principle of distraction. You're not going to feel the arthritis in your knee when someone's ramming a butterfly specimen needle into the nape of your neck. It's the same reason your nose never itches when your ankle is caught in a bear trap.”
Dennis Miller
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 7:22:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Core,
Great post. I believe this is the first time the wisdom of Dennis Miller has been used on this site.
Just a thought, do your colleagues know what happens on a cellular level of the epithelium when the acupuncture needle enters? Do they understand the relationship between the skin and the nervous tissue?
You're going to be part of The Nanaimo Experience, aren't you?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 7:40:00 AM
|
|
|
jma
Posts: 2414
Joined: August 24, 2000
From: NY
Status: offline
|
This is an interesting discussion. To define or be redefined.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 3:46:00 PM
|
|
|
coreconcepts
Posts: 68
Joined: April 13, 2005
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
|
Hi Barrett,
Appreciate your comments. Interesting question you pose re: the cellular level of the epithelium. What response should I expect upon my inquiry? (ie. what is it that they MIGHT say vs. what is it that they SHOULD say?)
I am afraid I have not been privy to the "Nanaimo Experience" - please enlighten me. I have been spreading the word about your upcoming "Simple Contact" workshop in Vancouver Sept 16-17th.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 4:25:00 PM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Core,
Consider the essay on my site titled "Touch and Sensation." Down the list a bit.
Nanaimo is on Vancouver Island. I assumed all you guys knew that. Thanks for promoting the course.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 5:16:00 PM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
Core, if you are interested in attending, email either me or Eric Matheson (or Barrett likely), and one of us can send you the info packet.
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 6:41:00 PM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
I finally reached my energy of activation and purchased my tickets. It pains me to go through that process. I find it downright harrowing. I'm clearly a "maximizer" (versus being good enough for who its for) when it comes to travel value but I did it. See you all there.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 8:10:00 PM
|
|
|
Lukey
Posts: 180
Joined: September 14, 2004
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
Core,
Even though certain aspects of some AMs are biologically plausible and physically possible when viewed in the scientific context, I don't think any of these satisfy a 'deep model' (see link in Jason's 3rd post).
Nutrition is an interesting issue. I don't think any conventional stance could deny that the principles of general human nutrition are fundamental to health. Why this has become so largely the role of alternative/complementary practitioners is intriguing. Certainly the lack of interest in the role of nutrition displayed by the conventional health professions until fairly recently may have something to do with it. I'm sure Jason will have more to add here.
Hope to see you at The Nanaimo Experience.
Luke
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 6, 2005 9:25:00 PM
|
|
|
nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
Core
How can you resist not coming to Nanaimo now?
jon,
Handing over money for airfares is rather painful, but at least you live in a country relatively close to other countries. Every time I fork out for airfares it reminds me just how far we in Oz are from anywhere...except Antarctica..
Maybe on the Sunday we can do some postmortems on the Experience.
Nari
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 3:08:00 AM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
Luke,
I think the interest in nutrition is because it is as close to 'prescribing' an oral solution to one's problems as a person get without medical prescribing privileges.
Nari,
Antartica, hmm. Do they have a bookstore, library and high speed internet?
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 5:32:00 AM
|
|
|
chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
|
Barrett, a couple of examples that we've experienced personally might be of some interest.
The first involves my 3 year old daughter that has eczema on/about the creases of her little elbows, which she sometimes scratches to the point of bleeding. We've been to her peds doc who prescribed cortisone cream, which works but can't be used long term or it creates problems of its own. We took her to an allergist to see if perhaps she was allergic to something that we could eliminate or mitigate, but no luck there. He did prescribe an oral suspension of something (don't recall the name but it has antihistamine properties and doesn't make her as drowsy as benadryl) which has been of great benefit. My wife started giving her flax seed oil and that did help. Didn't fix it, but it helped. That, in combination with the oral med seems to have done the trick, at least symptomatically, so she's not scratching her little arms all night and she can now sleep through the night. Her arms have nearly totally cleared up. Interesting.
The other example is acupuncture. I've had patients come in with what they thought was midback pain but when I examined them I noted the vesicular lesions of shingles. They then see their family doc, get meds, and sometimes that solves the problem. Other times unfortunately, it's of no help despite the fact that our dx of shingles is confirmed. As a last resort I've sent a few to an acupuncturist and I'd estimate that of the 5 or so cases that we've sent for acupuncture, 4 have gotten better in as little as one acupuncture tx. Now I'll be the first to admit that I have NO idea why this happens, but it happens nonetheless. Placebo? Maybe. Other factors? Maybe. Who knows. When I send the patient to the acupuncturist I make it clear to them that I have no idea how that stuff works, but that some patients have gotten relief. So when the patient has gone the traditional medical route to no effect, and is miserable due to the pain, I admit to taking the position (and this is what I tell the patient) that 'the worst that can happen is nothing.' (and the patient is a few bucks poorer).
My personal impression of acupuncture is that all of the eastern philosophy stuff that goes with it doesn't have much to do with the efficacy that acupuncture seems to have in some cases. I think it is due to as-yet unknown factors, and that the acupuncturists have just found a way to explain what they do in terms that they can understand. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc type thing.
Years ago when I had my tv show I was interviewing a cardiologist and during a break we were talking about the alternative med issue (I don't recall the context). He said something that I've adopted as kind of a guiding philosophy as relates to alt med. He said something like 'I'm not so arrogant as to say that something can't work just because I don't understand it. Lots of things that seemed crazy early on turned out later to be legitimate, but it took a while for science to explain it.' I didn't view that as a justification to adopt an 'anything goes' philosophy, but it made me realize that if nobody tried anything new just because no RCTs were available, then many legitimate remedies would never have been discovered.
On a personal level, I think this can be applied to chiropractic treatment. We see some pretty impressive things happen, and the subluxation theory is proclaimed by some as the reason. I think subluxation theory is another oblique example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, and hope that some day we'll find the real explanation, beyond simple placebo effect, for the results that some see.
Greg
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 7:05:00 AM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
Nari,
[QUOTE]Maybe on the Sunday we can do some postmortems on the Experience.[/QUOTE]I think you should bring your digital camera at least. I want to bring a tape recorder. Barrett, do you permit those?
There should be a lot to discuss after.
Here's an idea; maybe we could each contribute an essay into a collective book, that we could call "Fierce Conversations in Nanaimo." I could put it together, Barrett could edit it, and proceeds from its sale could go to some worthy Pain Organization or other. (I'm just weaving some fantasies here this morning. :) )
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 10:57:00 AM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Diane,
Great idea.
Watch for an announcement regarding the creation of a "vlog" of the whole thing while it's ongoing. I heard about "vlogging" for the first time yesterday morning while listening to NPR, so don't feel bad if it's new to you. It's a blog with video included. I'm bringing the camera and audio taping is welcomed. I want this to be an event for everybody who cares about it here on Rehab Edge.
You may not know this, but Jon Newman just registered. Anybody else out there interested?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 2:28:00 PM
|
|
|
nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
Status: offline
|
I will certainly have my camera, but I'm not good at photographing people, (I will do almost anything to chase a cloud or a mountain)and I avoid being photographed as much as possible.
So your idea of a 'vlog', Barrett, sounds quite scary, but I will nearly always find someone to hide behind conveniently.
But the idea of a book of essays is great. This will be a relatively unusual course (am I right?)in that there will be two Aussies bringing a bit of auroral flavour (no, not vegemite); and Canadians of course.
Barrett can write the preface and foreword. Maybe a group photograph pre and post- course??
Nari
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 3:09:00 PM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
Nari,
I'm with you. I think 'flog' would be more apt. Alas, I've not achieved a level of comfort with myself to appear on video for all to see. Nari, perhaps Escher-like, we'll pull ourselves through the bars. If that fails I get the hiding spot behind you.
Barrett,
I've never been used for promotional purposes before. I could have imagined an Anafranil plug but not this. Barrett's example is a good one though; if I can get out of my county you can find your way to Vancouver to meet these guys too. Just don't ask me to plan your trip.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 3:21:00 PM
|
|
|
Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
Status: offline
|
Actually, I was thinking of just a bunch of close-ups of me. But If you guys want to be in the background, well, okay.
Jon,
Having you there is promotional whether you know it or not, especially since you've acquired a new title. Are you ready?
The Linkmaster
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 3:53:00 PM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
I guess I should be glad that I wasn't approached for my imagined plug or I wouldn't have earned my new pseudonym.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 4:16:00 PM
|
|
|
Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Status: offline
|
"I think 'flog' would be more apt... Nari, perhaps Escher-like, we'll pull ourselves through the bars."
Not if we are all hiding behind each other. That would be a "clog."
Let's just have one class shot (to put here and in the back of the potential book), time to pose, no candids, and no vlog. Let the info come out as individual perceptions.
(Well, OK, maybe a vlog but for memory backup only, or maybe Barrett's face for his own archives, absolutely no permission forthcoming to actually put out any vlog containing my image on the internet or anything... maybe posthumously but not til then..)
Do other people like a group publication enough that we take that idea a notch more seriously?
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 4:29:00 PM
|
|
|
chiroortho
Posts: 655
Joined: February 18, 2004
Status: offline
|
Hey I thought this was a thread on alt med!
Besides, I can't say 'vlog' without biting my lip.
_____________________________
Greg Priest, DC, DABCO
|
|
|
|
|
Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? - August 7, 2005 5:01:00 PM
|
|
|
Jon Newman
Posts: 1709
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
Status: offline
|
Sorry Greg.
In the spirit of my moniker, here's a link to [URL=http://www.sram.org/about.html]a journal worth subscribing to[/URL] . Interestingly they are not indexed in pubmed or medline while other iffy journals are in. Go figure. I guess not everything worth reading is indexed there.
Bt the way, I often find myself biting my lip even when I'm not trying to say vlog.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
0.094
|
Printable Version
All Forums >> [RehabEdge Forum] >> Open Forum >> Re: What's wrong with Alternative Medicine? 
