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Re: Fierce Conversations
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 1:32:00 PM
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nari
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From: Australia
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jon's elegant prose (and Barrett's) leaves me twirling in their wakes, sometimes, but I figure I make my own wake at times, so that's OK.
Everyone to their own wakes as they steam along...
Re Barrett's hair - I used to think that men with beards always had something to hide, but I got over that, more or less. Can't imagine it will impact on anything in Vancouver....
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 3:36:00 PM
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srcase
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From: Michigan
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I like it Kathy.
Chris, that's your problem ;) jk
Nari, I can't imagine how you could come off that way, you seem so sweet.
During my practicals in PT school, I was told "You know this stuff, you just have to be a little more confident". Then I get into a clinical situation and I am basically told I am too confident, so Jason definitely has a good point. Although I am not tall and authoritative, my husband says I have I way of saying something as if it is the inarguable truth. But maybe I am just daring someone to challenge me. ;)
Online disinhibition is definitely a real phenomenon, as I have often been surprised about what I dare to post here. It is a good kind of disinhibition though, and I appreciate everyone who contributes because all opinions are valid in my book, and can only help us to understand our fellow humans.
Really, I came here because Barrett recommended it, and he was tall and authoritative! ;)
Sarah
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 4:03:00 PM
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Diane
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Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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It is a very thought-provoking link, for sure.
I have found a mental life jacket online. Before finding this ethernet world I thought in my outer everyday world I would die of boredom, because of the serious lack of like-minded people (no one to get into deep dicussions with), having solitary habits, a fairly narrow range of interests, and prefering books to people.
Most regular people's eyes start to glaze over when I talk for more than a few minutes about my pet subjects, so I take that as an indication that most people aren't too interested in my particular array of thoughts. Whatever.
I am an introvert.. I can't take big groups for very many days (like CPA Congress, 6 days was too long, took me 2 weeks to decompress). Online I can pace my contact with others and actually enjoy being a bit extrovert. I don't have to use my ears/hearing/listen to anything but the soft clack of keys. Just me and my thoughts and all the thoughts of all the other disembodied likeminded (or not) people out there.
I'm not imposing (certainly not tall or authoritative) nor do I find very many people imposing no matter how tall they are, not one on one anyway... I live in a neighbourhood that can be challenging, and walk everywhere. I can hold my own with most types, (i.e. feel safe on the street) at least for now, ask me in another 20 years.
I have greatly enjoyed any/all the people I've met online when I've later met them for real, so I look forward to all the fierce conversations we'll all have in Nanaimo, Jon, Nari, Luke, Eric, Barrett, Neil, Steve, who else? Jason, want to come visit BC? Take Barrett's class? You and Luke could have a fierce conversation about whether To Eat.. Or Not To Eat..hamburgers.. etc.. :)
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 5:17:00 PM
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dragonfire
Posts: 61
Joined: January 18, 2005
From: usa
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i have been reading the posts on this website for about 2 years now but only registered this year and only started to have the nerve to post anything. i enjoy reading the fierce conversations on this site and much of the time, i prefer to listen to what other people have to say. the delay in my posting and the preference to listen more than talking is most likely, cultural in nature.
while you're all talking, many thoughts and questions begin to process in my mind. my questions are genuine because i truly want to to learn and be more discriminating in the approaches that i use clinically.
i was at barrett's seminar last week in orlando. and yes, he was intimidating, at first. i was cringing in my seat when one of the participants questioned barrett that his position/direction in relation to the subject/patient could be 'leading' the patient as to where to move. barrett's response? "Don't you think I would have known that years ago, that my position would affect her movement?" he repeated this response a couple of times with his long sleeves rolled up showing his big hairy arms while walking towards the participant who questioned him, only stopping when he was about 1 foot away from this lady.of course,the lady participant remained quiet with her jaw dropped. i stop cringing when barrett stepped away from the participant. at the end of the day, i found barrett to be very passionate about his work and actually, inspiring. it was him who told me to have the courage to post at this website.
i agree with nari that body language can be intimidating, if not threatening. that is why cyberpace is a good place to exchange ideas. i agree with SJBird that fierce conversations can be done without being rude and arrogant. i think that some humility goes a longer way and makes most people more open to your ideas.
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 12:23:00 AM
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Lukey
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From: Australia
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Diane,
That all depends on what sort of hamburger you're talking about here. If it's the usual cheap, greasy, takeaway type, then I think Jason and I will come to an agreement quite quickly ;-)
Luke
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 12:27:00 AM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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I have been checking out this forum for about 18 months and what I really notice is how it has changed in that time. Back at the end of '03 it was quite formal, feisty at times, but not much casual, informal discussion in the way it occurs now so readily. Perhaps it is a form of cyberbonding...
I can relate to Diane's post. I too am an introvert and require time by myself quite often; if I do not get that time, I become feisty...my mother always told me : "Don't be so abrasive. dear!" So Sarah, if I come across as sweet, I also have another side - as most of us do!! But I have become more tolerant of people's foibles and idiosyncracies - probably ageing does that.
First impressions of people is another debatable discussion and an intriguing one! I wonder if introverts are more prone to positive impressions on first meeting someone, as we take time to mull over the impression's impact!? In my professional life there was only one person I took an instant and strong dislike to in the first 5 seconds; it never changed, and I never worked out why. Fortunately the association was shortlived..it was a real test of professionalism for me.
Looking forward to fierce discussions in Nanaimo.
nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 2:27:00 AM
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Barrett
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Okay, does everybody understand that when I said that thing about my hair that I was just kidding?
I recall this exchange quite clearly, and it's a perfect example of why "eye-witness" testimony is known to be just about worthless. In other words, I didn't move to within a foot of this woman. That would have been rude. I certainly made it clear that my observation of the patient's response hadn't been so casual during the past couple of decades that I would have missed something so basic. The implication that I had is absurd, and that's what I was reacting to. I think she got my point because she didn't suggest anything similar the rest of the day.
Perhaps one day the therapy community will abandon the "tea party" atmosphere that pervades it. In Robert Bly's "Iron John" he decries the loss of "fierce debate" and points out that "When playful verbal combats disappear, then warriorhood becomes reduced or restricted to wrestling, football, the martial arts, guerilla warfare, blood-and-guts movies...Science adopted generational struggle during the Renaissance as a means of progress and still uses it."
I'm trying to waken other therapists to this once again and welcome any and all academics to attend or post here. I want to know why they're still teaching the students so much we know not to be true. They either don't answer, or, even more powerfully, never show up.
A small, personal aside. A few years ago I was sitting and talking to my two children, Jennie and Alex. My daughter offhandedly mentioned a friend's father. "He's a real tough guy Dad. Not like you." I saw my son stiffen a bit in response. I said quietly, "I might not walk around barefoot with large tatoos on my hairy arms (okay, I just added that hairy part), but toughness comes in many forms. I stand in front of my peers regularly and tell them they're wrong. There's nothing easy or safe about that. I'm as tough as they come."
She understood.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 3:15:00 AM
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SJBird55
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From: Michigan
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I actually don't find too many people intimidating in real life or at this forum. It does take a lot of inner courage to stand up for what you believe.
Barrett, "eye-witness" testimony is always full of the observer's perception. Nari mentioned first impressions. That is interesting too, because first impressions are quite difficult to shake. I will admit, the first time I met you, I actually walked away irritated. I chose to introduce myself to you at one of the conferences and all that is in my memory from that experience is you choosing to discuss my lack of posting my actual name. All I remember is feeling the brunt of your frustration over my choice of being anonymous - which did bother me because you definitely weren't warm and friendly towards me. I remember initially thinking that I had had the perfect opportunity to maybe experience what you meant by the type of manual contact you use. Since I have a very difficult time always understanding your written communication style, I was actually excited that I just might have that little light bulb go off and I could do some self-reflecting and try to understand what you do in a way that I comprehend things. But, instead, I walked away irritated and then later disappointed. Life, I guess. Lesson was, I guess I should post my name and you wouldn't have voiced frustration and maybe I could have had a light bulb experience.
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 3:40:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
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From: Kentucky
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Most have probably realized that I do not participate in these types of threads very often. I have tried in the past over in the bully pit but usually just do not have much to add or I simply do not understand what you are talking about. I don't think I am a philosophical person and do not like theory. I prefer more concrete evidence for things and I struggle with this a lot in our profession because much of what we do in physical therapy lacks any evidence. I hate that about our profession.
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 4:30:00 AM
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Yogi
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From: San Antonio, Tx., USA
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Sara, there is a huge difference between aggressiveness and assertiveness, and many folks get them confused. I once had a CI tell me I wasn't aggressive enough. Pt's. complained to me privately about her. She was aggressive, and didn't realize that what she wanted to be was assertive.
Alex, right, it's been fairly evident you're not much into philosophical. I find your particular outlook (talent for the concrete) useful and edifying.
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 4:52:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
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From: USA
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Alex-
If you're uncomfortable with uncertainty, I'm not sure you would find any other profession much more satisfying. Perhaps engineering or physics? But even then, there are the relativity theories, etc.
In fact, much in life isn't very concrete, I've found. It helps for the Buddhist in me to "be comfortable not knowing".
And being an opinionated guy always spoiling for a fierce conversation doesn't hurt, either.
:)
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 5:35:00 AM
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Barrett
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Alex,
In line with this thread and because I'm "interrogating reality," when does information become "concrete" for you?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 10:30:00 AM
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srcase
Posts: 551
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From: Michigan
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SJ, that's funny about your first impression of Barrett. I remember, early in his class that he said something about posture and muscle strength having nothing to do with pain, and I asked (jokingly mind you) what Florence Kendall thought about that, but Barrett didn't seem to think it was funny. Sorry, Barrett. I didn't really want to speak up after that. I also remember the fire in your eyes when someone asked you about the similarities between your work and the MFR people. Basically, I left your course thinking you were a very passionate and inspiring speaker, and I had many more questions than answers. With all due respect, maybe you need to lighten up a little at your courses, so people are more receptive ;) I'm sure the course in Nanaimo will be a totally different experience given all the people here who are going.
Sarah
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 10:48:00 AM
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Barrett
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From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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No, not going to do it. If people want just some more postmodern niceties they can get their information elsewhere. Fact is, at every other course the class thinks I'm very funny. I haven't figured out what I do that makes that happen one day and not the next.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 11:01:00 AM
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srcase
Posts: 551
Joined: November 30, 2004
From: Michigan
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That is strange, you didn't seem amused at the Detroit course, maybe it was the environment...not a very pleasant place to visit. :)
Sarah
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 1:51:00 PM
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nari
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From: Australia
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Yogi
In the world of managership(?) the confusion between aggressiveness and assertiveness is rampant. There are many courses around trying to teach people the difference, but not many take much notice. Passive aggression is the worst -because the person has no insight at all on the effect on others; it is subtle and tedious to observe.
Whereas assertive people (they are important in an organisation) get the black mark by those who fear any sort of authority.
Barrett
I must admit my first cyberspace contacts with you were not positive; I detected what I thought was aggression - but as the months rolled past, I changed my mind on this completely. What I then detected was a passion for your profession, something I did have not long ago, but has worn thin recently.
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 5:29:00 PM
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eam
Posts: 292
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From: New York, NY 10028
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I find that this website, although I do not know anybody personally, is a site of friendly but challenging conversation. I work with 6 other therapists and with the exception of maybe 1 or 2, conversations (fierce or not) regarding what we do and why we do it or for that matter, can you help me with a particular patient? are far and few between. I find that I am always the one starting the conversation (for better or worse!). Although I do not get chart reviewed, I often think while writing my notes, "Will I be able to justify my treatment plan?". I left my old career b/c I was not learning anything anymore, getting stale. Engaging in intellectual conversations via this forum or attending courses (the right ones) is an avenue to grow, if you want to. And I think that the people who contribute to this site, want to.
Conversation is good, even if it is not oral, the written word is a beautiful thing.
Erica
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 24, 2005 6:44:00 PM
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dragonfire
Posts: 61
Joined: January 18, 2005
From: usa
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replaying the scene in my head, the lecturer was NOT one foot away from the lady participant in question but one person away. there was another participant sitting between the lecturer and the lady participant. that's how accurately i can get to describe the distance of the lecturer to the participant. that's how i perceived the blocking of the characters were in this scene.
a lot of history is based on eye witness accounts. the media that brings us the news bombards us with these. they may be colored by the emotions of the eyewitness but i dont think they're worthless. they're important and only need further interrogation for reality or the truth to emerge.an example would be hx taking of a patient at the clinic. perhaps this would be for another thread. hearsays are worthless, not eye witness accounts.
barrett, just to clarify, i did not imply you to be rude. not at all. but very intense. that encounter between you and that participant is an example of a fierce conversation. may have been one sided or short lived, but fierce anyway. which is why i posted it to this thread because it was an example of a fierce conversation. i have to give you credit that you facilitated in slightly altering my reality of that fierce conversation at that seminar because you questioned it. it lead me to replay that scene and evaluate it again in my head. slightly altered but nevertheless, closer to the truth if not the truth.
there was some humor in your orlando seminar, the big projector screen displayed it and you pointed it out - pop up pictures of yourself.
;)
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 25, 2005 1:55:00 AM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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DF,
Perhaps I should have said of eye-witness accounts that they are "notoriously unreliable" since they depend upon our memories, and we know that those are hardly distinguishable from our imagination.
The conversation was fierce because I "interrogated reality" first. By this I mean I went right to the implication of the question. I'm glad you agree.
Honestly, I said all kinds of funny stuff in Orlando and-true story-a woman in Tampa the next day told me I'd missed my true calling as a stand-up comedian (something I've heard before). Nobody in Orlando got it, but that's show biz.
This comes to me this morning: "In my heart, I know I'm funny." That's a line from an unfunny character in Robin Williams' "Good Morning, Vietnam." The tagline for the movie is relavant here: "The wrong man. In the wrong place. At the right time."
Is this the right time for the therapy community to have more fierce conversations?
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 25, 2005 2:25:00 AM
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Alex Brenner PT MPT OCS
Posts: 1057
Joined: February 29, 2004
From: Kentucky
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Barrett,
A simple example of something concrete, to me, in our profession would be treatment for an acute ankle sprain. With acute ankles there is typically large swelling and we know what happens on the physiological and scientific level if we apply cold and compression. The improvements seen with this type of intevention is also backed with research/clinical trials to support it. At this point, it appears more concrete to me. Unfortunately much of what we do is not like this.
_____________________________
Alex Brenner, PT, MPT, OCS
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