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Re: Fierce Conversations
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 3:28:00 PM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Nari,
I agree. There's also the issue of how much I actually scare some people. I think it's my hair or something. I am not concerned about scaring you in Vancouver.
Also, I forgot to mention that I just spent two weeks in Florida and no one offered to buy me a beer. I'm up the East Coast in several cities this month. Hint, hint.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 3:40:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
Joined: March 11, 2004
From: Texas
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Good point Nari! Speaking of visual rejection, that's why I use to engage in phone sex before I got married. :)
Obviously I'm joking! I think it would be interesting if everyone had a PC camera so that we could debate topics of interest and see each others body language. However, I may become athetoic when pushed into a corner. :)
Barrett,
If you come to Dallas, I know several places where we could go and partake of some frothy beverages all while spouting out endless diatribe. :)
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 5:12:00 PM
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Diane
Posts: 1507
Joined: March 9, 2001
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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This weekend aside, Barrett, I expect that Eric will scout all the good watering holes in Nanaimo for your September workshop.
Steve, are you interested? Barrett is coming to town just a few miles north of you, you wouldn't even have to take the ferry. Nari will be there, I will too, and as many others as want to come (Eric found the amazing expanding venue.)
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 5:25:00 PM
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PTupdate.com
Posts: 1477
Joined: October 8, 2001
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
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"why not have the brews near the ocean here in so fla?"....PARTY AT BEN'S HOUSE!!!!!
Barrett says "I agree. There's also the issue of how much I actually scare some people. I think it's my hair or something" I don't remember much hair when I met you. Yes, some would be intimidated to argue with you. Perhaps beginning with a one-on-one argument before moving into the open forum....kind of the opposite of what Rocky Balboa and Apollo Creed did in the third movie.
Duffy
_____________________________
John M. Duffy, PT
Board Certified Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist
www.PTupdate.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 5:29:00 PM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1707
Joined: April 24, 2004
From: Amherst, WI
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In the latest issue of Scientific American Mind (worth the subscription price for those of you without enough magazines on your coffee tables) There is a short piece by Jonathan Beard titled New View on Autism. In the article he cites a research study in which they studied what happens (via MRI) in the brains of teenagers when viewing familiar faces and other faces displaying various emotions. Basically they found that compared to average kids, autistic kids had overarousal of emotional centers, resulting in avoidance. I wonder if something like that doesn't happen to many of us when having a fierce conversation. Personally, I can still remember the day I learned to look someone in the eyes.
Barrett, I think smart people are scary to many people, especially when an opposing view point pops into their heads during conversation. In other words, it's not the hair.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 5:49:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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jon
Good points raised; I have read the article in SAM, and still wonder about there being a higher percentage of autistic people than anyone thinks ..
I too gradually learned to look people in the eye - it took about twentyfive years or so...still something of a conscious effort (uhoh,maybe not conscious).
Barrett
I'm sure it will be easy to sample the Canadian beer quality;September the 16th p.m. looks good...
Has anyone ever done encounter group work? Just curious - I think it died a natural death in the 1980s as it was too fierce, too brutal and too mind changing...but it's where I learned better to look people in the face!!
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 5:49:00 PM
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srcase
Posts: 551
Joined: November 30, 2004
From: Michigan
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True story: a "friend" in PT school once told me that she couldn't sit next to me anymore in class because I always wanted to talk about "deep" things, was too happy (not a stress case like everyone else), and I made her feel dumb. Most people don't take the time to actually tell me why they don't like me. I appreciated her honesty, but was stunned by the irony as well.
Ok, one more story: I took a philosophy class in college, which consisted of reading assignments and class discussions. Only about 10% of the class actively participated. At the end of the semester, we found out that a large portion of our grades would be based on class participation, and that those marks would come from each other. Ah, the sweet vengence of marking down those who never voiced a single opinion and treated me like a weirdo for doing so.
Barrett, I too just ordered the book from Amazon, and can't wait to read it up north in the woods, away from the office for a whole week! Thanks for this thread, it has been my life preserver this week.
Sarah
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 6:01:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
Joined: November 14, 2003
From: Australia
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Sarah
Far from wanting this thread to be an agony aunt bit, you may be cheered up a bit more by the fact I was taken to task in an encounter group some time ago for the same reasons as you were! Two hours later, the dust all cleared and all was fine. I was considered arrogant, too clever and I humiliated them...the facilitator, a gorgeous young black haired guy who rode a Harley, kept beautiful control of the missiles..but it was an interesting exercise in emphasising the fact that if people do not like you - it is THEIR problem...
Cheers! Have a good week
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 6:07:00 PM
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Synergy
Posts: 592
Joined: March 11, 2004
From: Texas
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I was told the second I exited the womb to look anyone in the eye when having a conversation. My dad is an ol' Southern farmboy and I suppose this one of my first lessons in respect. I find myself attempting to gather one's attention (if they're not looking at my eyes) if they seem to be talking to a wall.
Jon,
Good point on smart people. Several profs of mine in college and PT school were brilliant and were deemed unapproachable. I remember a sense of fear when I needed to ask them a question. One was my chemistry professor. I disagreed with him one day on something and asked him "Doc, I'm not sure how to say this but I don't agree with you on ....I know you're a PhD....".
He said "Chris, don't be fearful in asking me or any other professor a question, regardless of how stupid you may think it sounds." He then went on to tell me "in reference to initials behind names, B.S. means bullsh*t, M.S. means more sh*t, and Ph.D means piled high and deeper."
Needless to say, I never had anymore problems asking questions and I also got a good laugh out of it. :)
Sarah,
You make me feel dumb! ;)
_____________________________
Chris Adams, PT, MPT
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 6:31:00 PM
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nari
Posts: 1568
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From: Australia
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Chris
I have got to remember the BS, MS and PhD bit - although I have heard it before, had forgotten about it.
Good point about the respect bit! It is true, but does not make it any easier...
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 6:53:00 PM
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ericm
Posts: 171
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From: Nanaimo, BC
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Jon posted this link a while ago now but I think it needs to resurface in this thread. [URL=http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/disinhibit.html]Online disinhibition effect[/URL]
It explains nicely the conversations that can emerge here.
eric
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 22, 2005 7:43:00 PM
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nari
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From: Australia
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Well posted, eric
Nari
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 3:52:00 AM
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JLS_PT_OCS
Posts: 1684
Joined: January 30, 2005
From: USA
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Well, I think this status quo satisfaction stuff and "rut" that SJ spoke of happens in every profession.
And while I know that I can intimidate people when I talk vigorously about something, I'm not sure it has anything to do with intelligence.
I think a lot of people are so cowed by a confident demeanor that they refuse to question what's being said, regardless of how it sounds.
Reminded me of Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink" where he talked about the Warren G. Harding effect - if someone looks tall and authoritative, then we assume they have leadership ability and intelligence...obviously a mistake in judging Harding, and likely with me as well.
But that goes nicely with the Online Disinhibition thread...no one can be intimidated by my height (if they are intimidated by height) and I can't see Barrett's beard (if I'm impressed by beards) so no one would be swayed by assumptions of competence or anything like that.
J
_____________________________
Jason Silvernail DPT, OCS, CSCS
"It isn't what you're able to do that requires your courage but rather what you have come to understand and are willing to express." - Barrett Dorko,PT
**I no longer post on RehabEdge**
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 5:39:00 AM
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steve
Posts: 470
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From: Canada
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Diane,
I'm allready making arrangements, Eric was king enough to let me know earlier this week.
Steve
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 6:03:00 AM
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OaksPT
Posts: 124
Joined: November 19, 2003
From: Va
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Barrett,
"In other words, no mindless nodding while you wait for the other person to shut up. Scott suggests we use silence as a way of allowing our sense of what’s been said to sink in and lead us to the next stage."
I've told this my wife many times when she accuses me of not listening to her( that I'm processing what she has said, and in order to give her the most appropriate response, I need to think about it for a minute).
Duffy,
I know exactly what you're talking about, I have one local PT that I interact with, and it's only because we have children the same age, on a clinical level, all of the local PT's that I know are very satisfied with status quo, quick to joke with me about how much of a dork I am (sorry Barrett)for reading so much, but at the same time call on me for help with patients they aren't progressing with.
Scott
_____________________________
Scott Oaks PT,DPT
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 6:15:00 AM
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Jon Newman
Posts: 1707
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From: Amherst, WI
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Thanks for reposting that link Eric. I had forgotten about that. You know, it's kind of interesting that people already had a feeling for this effect by their reference to having this type of (fierce)conversation over beers.
jon
_____________________________
[URL=http://www.sonymusic.com/clips/selection/30/064887/064887_03_03_30.wav]Evidence[/URL]
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 7:55:00 AM
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Barrett
Posts: 967
Joined: July 28, 1999
From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
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Near to the end of her book Scott refers to the properties of a crucible to help us understand how we must strive to be in the midst of a fierce conversation that is, in effect, going badly for us, or, at least, badly for our dearly held beliefs and ideas.
She points out that a crucible’s job is to hold whatever is being heated without melting itself; to remain steady and implacable (at least, metaphorically) while storms of words not adherent to the principles she’s outlined-and certainly portraying something other than fierceness-swirl about and within this particular attempt at communication.
I can relate. In California earlier this year a woman in the last row began to complain rather loudly about how she felt the movement I was advocating was “no different than just walking around” and that “the effect won’t ever last.” She asked if I had ever instructed my patients in “proper lifting techniques.” I remained calm, I answered as best I could though I couldn’t help but wonder aloud where her opinions might have originated and what ergonomics had to do with anything I’d said. She eventually stormed out. Funny thing-I understand she died rather mysteriously not long after. (That’s an inside joke for people who’ve taken my course)
Reading Scott’s advice I thought of this incident and a few others over the years and was satisfied that I had some sense of the value of the crucible’s image. I know remaining calm is hard but doing less than that is a big mistake. And as the book reminds us, crucibles can take the heat but in response to actual force they are sensitive and fragile structures. I certainly feel that way personally, and for that reason I “fiercely” protect the space around some of my ideas. People who approach them with anything less than my own weapons of intellect and study will find them hard to reach harmfully. Remaining a skeptic (which means I’m open to all arguments I consider physically possible and biologically plausible) while fending off the dogma and craziness that passes for therapy these days requires tremendous vigilance and thoughtfulness.
I wouldn’t have it any other way.
_____________________________
Barrett L. Dorko P.T.
http://barrettdorko.com
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 8:36:00 AM
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KAK
Posts: 200
Joined: December 1, 2004
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Jason,
The Warren Harding effect:
I’ll never forget my eye opening encounter with this! I had a student several years back that had the whole package. He was tall, broad shouldered, very handsome, and confident! I was amazed and jealous :) of the way patients immediately put their full confidence in him. Of course I was aware of his skill level which was average for a student. I had an impossible time with his patients (filling his shoes) when he left! Of course I’m size 7 and he was at least 15!
I think confidence (at least bravery) is what is needed for fierce conversation. I was nervous when I started posting here. We all have those basic needs of acceptance and significance. I felt a bit inadequate and was afraid of appearing “stupid”. My husband didn't help when he said, "You’re playing with the big boys now." I decided that I was willing to risk anyway, to share with others who have a similar professional passion and to learn to stretch myself. I still do feel a bit intimidated by some of you, because I am more of a practical and concrete (not so deep) thinker. I haven’t taken the time to do the voluminous reading many of you have. However, I don’t let that stop me. I think to participate in fierce conversations, one has to put aside one’s fears and defenses and consider the other’s point of view. I’m sure that is easier for some…
Barrett, I was at your course and I wasn’t frightened by your hair! I found your intellect intimidating; but more than that I found your passion and challenges both refreshing and encouraging. That is what brought me to RehabEdge.
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 8:51:00 AM
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Yogi
Posts: 403
Joined: April 5, 2004
From: San Antonio, Tx., USA
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KAK, yeah, lots of folks here are intimidating, in one way or another, either in clinical expertise, or, uh, I can't think of the word, you know, precisely and elegantly communicating.
I ve always said, I'm good, but I'm not the best, and I'll accept that. I'm impressed by the best, and everyone here seems to have something they're best at, if not, for sure darn good, each person's talent seems to come thru by their postings.
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Re: Fierce Conversations - June 23, 2005 12:35:00 PM
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KAK
Posts: 200
Joined: December 1, 2004
Status: offline
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I thought some of you might appreciate this. Our church has a small group which meets weekly. The sole purpose is to read books (with a spiritual bent), and have fierce conversations about the ideas therein. They call themselves “The Porcupines”.
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